* This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting. OKAY, [00:00:01] GOOD AFTERNOON. UH, WE ARE GOING TO START, UM, THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MEETING TODAY, NOVEMBER 20TH, AND IT IS 1:01 PM UM, THERE IS NO ONE AT THIS POINT THAT IS, UH, SIGNED UP TO SPEAK, SO WE'RE GONNA PASS OVER THAT. UM, THE AGENDA [a. Consider approving the minutes for the Civil Service Commission meeting held on October 23, 2025.] ITEM NUMBER TWO IS THE MINUTES, AND WE'RE GONNA CONSIDER APPROVING THE MINUTES FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MEETING THAT WAS HELD ON OCTOBER 23RD, 2025. I'LL MAKE A MOTION. WE ACCEPT THE MINUTES FOR THAT OCTOBER 23RD MEETING. A SECOND. YEP. I'M GOING TO SECOND IT. THERE ARE NO CORRECTIONS HERE. UM, ALL IN FAVOR, AYE. AYE. AND NO ONE IS OPPOSED, SO THE MINUTES WILL STAND. THAT GETS THAT QUICKLY. ALL RIGHT. UH, [a. Consider the appeal from Fire Engineer Blake Steffenauer regarding the temporary suspension issued by Fire Chief Kenneth Dobson on October 20, 2025.] BUSINESS ITEM NUMBER THREE. WE ARE GOING TO CONSIDER THE APPEAL FROM FIRE ENGINEER BLAKE STEFANO REGARDING THE TEMPORARY SUSPENSION ISSUED BY FIRE CHIEF KENNETH DOBSON ON OCTOBER 20TH, 2025. AND WE HAVE A LOT OF PAPERS TO SH SO, UM, THE HEARING WAS PURSUANT TO TEXAS LOCAL GOVERNMENT CODE 1 4 3 0.053 TO CONSIDER THE APPEAL FROM FIRE CHIEF ENGINEER, FIRE ENGINEER BLAKE STEFANO, REGARDING THE TEMPORARY SUSPENSION ISSUED BY FIRE CHIEF KENNETH DOBSON ON OCTOBER 20TH, 2025. TODAY'S HEARING IS THE APPEAL OF DISCIPLINARY ACTION TAKEN AGAINST FIRE ENGINEER BLAKE STEFEN HOUR REGARDING A TEMPORARY SUSPENSION ISSUED BY THE FIRE CHIEF KENNETH DOBSON ON OCTOBER 20TH, 2025. THE EMPLOYEE FILED A TIMELY APPEAL UNDER SECTION 1 4 3 0.010 AND 1 4 3 4 3 0.053, AND OUR LOCAL RULES, THE COMMISSION HAS JURISDICTION TO HEAR THIS CASE. I'LL NOW CALL THIS MEETING TO ORDER. UH, WE WILL BEGIN BY NOTING THE APPEARANCES FOR THE RECORD. COUNSEL FOR THE CITY, PLEASE INTRODUCE YOURSELF. MY NAME IS VANCE HINES AND I'M AN ASSISTANT CITY ATTORNEY HERE IN THE CITY OF BAYTOWN. AND I'VE GOT, UH, CHIEF KENNETH DOBSON WITH ME HERE AT THE TABLE. ALSO PRESENT ARE DEREK GASKIN, JOHN SHEFIELD, JOSEPH ABERT, PATRICK MAHONEY, AND THEN KENNETH. SO THAT, UH, ALL OF THOSE ARE HERE ON BEHALF OF THE CITY. THANK YOU. AND COUNSEL OR REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE EMPLOYEE, PLEASE INTRODUCE YOURSELF. YES, MY NAME IS DALLAS WEBB, PRESIDENT BAYTOWN LOCAL 1173. ALSO HAVE JIMMY HALL, TEXAS ASSOCIATION OF FIREFIGHTERS AND BLAKE STEFAN. HOUR. THANK YOU. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE APPEARANCE AS STATED. UM, BEFORE WE BEGIN, I DO NEED TO REMIND EVERYONE THAT THIS IS A PUBLIC HEARING EXCEPT FOR THE COMMISSION DELIBERATIONS, WHICH MAY OCCUR IN EXECUTIVE SESSION. THE COMMISSION HAS NOT REVIEWED OR DISCUSSED THE FACTS OF THIS CASE BEFORE TODAY. ALL DECISIONS WILL BE BASED ON ONLY, ONLY ON THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED IN THIS HEARING. UM, COUPLE OF HOUSEKEEPING ITEMS. IF WE COULD PLEASE TURN OFF ALL OF OUR CELL PHONES AND, UH, OBSERVED PROPER DECORUM FOR THIS HEARING, AND WE WILL PROCEED WITH THE NEXT. SO, PRE-HEARING, UH, BEFORE WE BEGIN WITH THE TESTIMONY, OUR RULES REQUIRE US TO ADDRESS ANY PRE-HEARING MOTIONS, REQUESTS, OR JURISDICTIONAL MATTERS. DO EITHER OF THE PARTIES HAVE ANY PRELIMINARY ISSUES TO RAISE? UH, YES. COMMITTEE, YES, CHAIRMAN. UM, I HAVE TALKED TO DALLAS AND I ASKED IF WE COULD SIT AT THE TABLES AND, UH, FOR THE CROSS EXAMINATION AND FOR THE, UH, INSTEAD OF USING THE, UH, PODIUM OVER THERE, IT, IT WOULD, IT WOULD BE A, UH, A FAVOR TO ME IF I COULD JUST SIT AT THE TABLE AND, AND WORK. SO, AND DALLAS DOES NOT OBJECT, UH, THE, THE, UM, THAT'S IT. NO. THE SECOND THING WAS WE'VE GOT A LIST OF EXHIBITS THAT AGNES GAVE US THAT WE'RE [00:05:01] GOING TO USE FOR THE WITNESSES, AND I JUST WANTED TO BRING THIS TO Y'ALL'S ATTENTION THAT THAT'S ALL ALSO AGREED TO BETWEEN DALLAS AND I. OKAY. SO EVERYBODY'S GONNA SIT COMFORTABLY WHERE THEY ARE AND THEN WE HAVE THE EXHIBITS. RIGHT. I JUST ONE COMMENT, MR. MR. HINES, YOU DON'T HAVE TO STAND TO SPEAK. MR. WEBB, SAME THING. IF YOU'LL REMAIN SEATED, SPEAK INTO THE MICROPHONES, THAT'LL BE FINE. OKAY. THANK YOU. ALRIGHT. THIS TIME, UH, COMMISSION MOVES TO, TO THE INTRODUCTION OF JOINT EXHIBITS. UH, YOU HAVE AGREED UPON THE EXHIBITS. THEN, UM, CAN I REQUEST ONE OF THE PARTIES TO MOVE THE LIST EXHIBIT NUMBERS AND DOCUMENTS THAT ARE JOINT FOR THIS HEARING? YEAH, YOU'RE FINE. YES, CHAIRMAN. UM, WE'VE AGREED UPON 17 EXHIBITS. UM, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF J ONE TO J 17. OKAY. UH, THESE ARE AGREED UPON AND WE'RE ASKING THE COMMISSION TO MOVE AND, AND WE'RE, AND WE'RE MOVING THAT THESE BE ADMITTED INTO THIS HEARING, UH, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES. ALL RIGHT. WE'LL ALLOW THAT. DEFINITELY. SO LET THEM KNOW WE'RE GOING TO, UM, MOVE TO INTRODUCE ALL OF THE EXHIBITS. 17 OF THEM. MR. HINES, FOR PURPOSES OF THE RECORD, CAN WE HAVE YOU LIST OUT THE NAMES OF THE EXHIBITS SO THAT WE ARE CLEAR TO THE EFFECT OF JOINT EXHIBIT NUMBER ONE, DISCIPLINARY DETERMINATION, SO FORTH AND SO ON, SO THAT THE RECORD WILL BE CLEAR? YES. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. THE EXHIBITS STARTING WITH J ONE IS A, IS A DISC DISCIPLINARY DETERMINATION. UH, J TWO IS POLICY. POLICY 3 23 J THREE ARE A COPY OF TEXT MESSAGES. J FOUR IS A COPY OF TEXT MESSAGES. J FIVE AND J SIX ARE BOTH COPIES OF TEXT MESSAGES. SO THERE'S FOUR EXHIBITS THAT ARE TEXT MESSAGES. EXHIBIT SEVEN IS A COMPLAINT. EXHIBIT EIGHT IS A RESPONSE. EXHIBIT NINE IS A WEBPAGE. INFO. EXHIBIT 10 IS AN EMAIL. EX EXHIBIT J 11 IS THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS REPORT. EXHIBIT J 12 IS THE PROBABLE CAUSE STATEMENT. EXHIBIT J 13 IS, UH, ANOTHER RESPONSE FROM ENGINEER, UH, HANAUER J 14 IS THE TIMELINE. J 15 IS THE DISCIPLINE. 12 HOURS OF NO, NO, NO. J 15 IS A 12 HOURS OF DISCIPLINE. OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE RECEIVED 12 HOURS OF DISCIPLINE. J 16 IS THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES AND REGULATIONS, AND J 17 IS A, UH, SUBPOENA REQUEST. ALL RIGHT. EVERYONE HAS AGREED TO THESE EXHIBITS, CORRECT? THAT IS CORRECT. ON BEHALF OF THE CITY, THANK YOU. YES, THANK YOU. ALL RIGHT. AND EXHIBITS HAVE BEEN READ. UH, COMMISSIONER WOMAN, CAN YOU YES. ENSURE THAT YOU RECEIVE THOSE INTO THE RECORD OFFICIALLY FOR J ONE THROUGH J 17? J 17? SO BOTH PAR BOTH PARTIES HAVE AGREED TO THE AUTHENTICITY AND ADMISSIBILITY OF THESE JOINT EXHIBITS, CORRECT? THAT IS CORRECT. THAT IS, THANK YOU. SO WE ARE GOING TO HEREBY ADMIT J ONE THROUGH J 17 INTO THE RECORD BY AGREEMENT OF THE PARTIES. ALL RIGHT. UH, AT THIS TIME, ANYONE WHO EXPECTS TO TESTIFY TODAY FOR EITHER THE CITY OR THE EMPLOYEE, PLEASE STAND TO BE SWORN. PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND. DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR OR AFFIRM THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU WILL GIVE BEFORE THIS COMMISSION TODAY WILL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH? CAN YOU RESPOND? YES, I DO. THANK YOU. WITNESSES AS A POINT OF REFERENCE, UM, [00:10:01] YOU'LL BE SEATED. WELL, WE'RE GONNA CHANGE THAT. WE'RE NOT GONNA BE SEATING OVER HERE, CORRECT? THINK EVERYBODY'S GONNA LET EVERYBODY STAY AT THEIR, THE WITNESSES WILL SAY, COME THE WITNESSES AND STAND WILL TAKE AND COME TAKE THE STAND. OKAY. BUT EVERYBODY ELSE IS GONNA STAY IN THEIR SEATS. ALL RIGHT. AND THE WITNESSES THAT ARE IN ATTENDANCE HAVE BEEN, YOU'VE DOCUMENTED ALL OF THOSE? YEAH. FOR THE RECORD, FOR THE WITNESSES THAT WE HAVE, AND FOR THOSE THAT STOOD OF BLAKE STEFAN, AUER ENGINEER, KENNETH DOBSON, FIRE CHIEF PATRICK MAHONEY, ASSISTANT CHIEF, UH, JOSEPH, JDA, BEAR CAPTAIN JOHN SHEFFIELD, BATTALION CHIEF, AND DEREK GASKIN, ASSISTANT CHIEF. WAS THERE ANYBODY STANDING THAT I MISSED? OKAY. THAT THE RECORD REFLECT THOSE WERE THE WITNESSES THAT ALL RIGHT. WERE SWORN IN. UH, WE'LL NOW HEAR OPENING STATEMENTS IN THIS MATTER. EACH SIDE WILL HAVE FIVE MINUTES TO MAKE AN OPENING STATEMENT. THE CITY SHALL MAKE ITS OPENING STATEMENT FIRST, WHICH WILL BRIEFLY EXPLAIN THE ALLEGED VIOLATIONS. BASICALLY, UM, THE EVIDENCE WILL SHOW IN THIS CASE THAT, UH, ENGINEER AUER DID LET HIS DRIVER'S LICENSE, UH, EXPIRE ON MAY THE 28TH. AND PART OF HIS DUTIES AS AN ENGINEER IS TO DRIVE THE, UH, FIRE TRUCKS. AND MR. STEFAN HOUR WAS NOT ABLE, OR, OR DID NOT GET HIS LICENSE RE, UH, RENEWED UNTIL AUGUST THE FIFTH. AND DURING THAT TIME, THERE WERE SEVERAL NOTICES GIVEN TO HIM. HE HAD OVER TWO MONTHS TO GET THIS, UH, LICENSE TAKEN CARE OF, AND WHILE HE WAS STILL WORKING AND DRIVING OUR FIRE TRUCKS WITH AN EXPIRED LICENSE, PART OF, UM, POLICY 3 23 STATES THAT IT IS THE OBLIGATION OF THE EMPLOYEE TO MAINTAIN A, A, UH, PROPER DRIVER DRIVER'S LICENSE. AND IT'S ALSO PART OF THAT POLICY TO, UH, NOTIFY YOUR SUPERVISOR IMMEDIATELY IF THERE'S ANY CHANGE IN STATUS OF THAT DRIVER'S LICENSE. AND MR. STEFEN HOWER, UH, WHOLLY FAILED TO DO EITHER OF THOSE THINGS. UM, THERE WILL BE SOME TESTIMONY THAT STEFEN HOWER WAS IN COMMUNICATION WITH. UM, LEMME MAKE SURE I GET THESE TIED BATTALION CHIEF. NO, I'M, YEAH, BATTALION CHIEF SHEFFIELD. AND, BUT SHERIFF CHIEF CHIEF SHEFIELD IS A, UM, TRAINING. UH, HE'S IN THE TRAINING DIVISION. NO ONE IN THE OPERATING DIVISION WAS NOTIFIED UNTIL, UM, WHEN WAS THE DATE? UM, I CAN'T REMEMBER. BUT THE, WE'LL WALK THROUGH THE TIMELINE AND, UM, DISCUSS EXACTLY WHEN THE OPERATIONS DIVISION WAS NOTIFIED. AT THAT POINT, HE WAS IMMEDIATELY TAKING OFF, TAKEN OFF. UM, D YOU KNOW, HE WAS TAKEN OFF THE TRUCK AND PUT INTO ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES, AND HE TOOK SOME VACATION AND DAYS AND DIFFERENT THINGS. BUT, UM, BASICALLY, UH, THE COMPLAINT AND THE ULTIMATELY DETERMINATION WAS BECAUSE OF HIS FAILURE TO MAINTAIN, UH, THE STATUS OF HIS DRIVER'S LICENSE AND HIS FAILURE TO REPORT IT TO HIS DIRECT SUPERVISOR. AND AS OF THIS, UH, CHIEF DOBSON REVIEWED ALL OF THE EVIDENCE AND ALL OF THE INFORMATION PROVIDED AND CAME TO THE DETERMINATION THAT 12 DAYS PUNISHMENT, 12 HOURS PUNISHMENT, WOULD BE REASONABLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES FOR, FOR THE, UM, FACTS AND CIRCUMSTANCES OF THIS CASE. AND SO HE SENTENCED HIM TO 12 HOURS OFF. AND, UM, ENGINEER STEF AND I APPEALED THE DECISION, AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE TODAY. OKAY. THANK YOU. UM, THE COUNCIL REPRESENTING BLAKE STEFAN HOUR, YOU CAN NOW GIVE YOUR OPENING STATEMENT ON BEHALF. YES, PLEASE. FIRST OF OFF, I'D LIKE TO THANK Y'ALL FOR BEING HERE AND TAKING TIME OUTTA YOUR BUSY SCHEDULE. I KNOW EVERYBODY'S BUSY DOING THINGS. WE INTEND TO PROVE THAT BLAKE [00:15:01] STEF HOUR INDEED DID LET HIS DRIVER'S LICENSE LAPSE. WE KNOW THAT WE FEEL THAT THE SEVERITY OF A 12 HOUR SUSPENSION IS PRETTY HARSH ON SOMEBODY WHO'S NEVER HAD ANY OFFENSE EVER IN THE CITY OF BAYTOWN, THE 12 YEARS THAT HE'S WORKED HERE INSIDE OF OUR COMMAND STRUCTURE, IT DOES NOT SPECIFY THAT THIS PERSON IS THE SUPERVISOR OR NOT WITHIN THE STRUCTURE OF OUR, OUR COMMAND. IT'S FIREFIGHTER, DRIVER, OR SORRY, ENGINEER, CAPTAIN BATALION, CHEST DIVISION CHIEF, ASSISTANT CHIEF AND CHIEF. SO ANYBODY ABOVE HIM IS CONSIDERED A SUPERVISOR. THEREFORE, HE, WHEN HE FELT, HE FELT, THAT WAS WHEN A SUPERVISOR OR A AUTHORITY FIGURE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT WAS TALKING TO HIM, HE FIGURED THAT WAS THE, THE DEAL THAT A SUPERVISOR ALREADY KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE TIME. SO THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. THANK YOU. UM, UNDER THE LOCAL RULES, HEARING PROCEEDS WITH, UM, INTRODUCTION OF THE STATEMENT OF CHARGES, SO FOR OUR DIRECTOR YEAH. AT THIS TIME, THE, UM, BOTH, UH, THE ATTORNEY FOR MR. FOR ENGINEER STEFAN HOUR, AND I AGREED THAT, UH, EXHIBIT ONE, UH, WOULD BE OFFERED FOR THE STATEMENT OF CHARGES, THE DISCIPLINARY DETERMINATION. AND, AND SO WE'RE ASKING THE COMMISSION TO ENTER THAT EXHIBIT J ONE, UM, IN, FOR THIS CAUSE. ALRIGHT. ANY OBJECTION TO THAT? NO, MA'AM. SO, NO OBJECTION. THE JOINT EXHIBIT ONE, THE DISCIPLINARY DETERMINATION IS ENTERED INTO THE RECORD AS THE STATEMENT OF CHARGES. UM, MR. HANS, UH, YOU CAN NOW PRESENT EVIDENCE OR CALL WITNESSES. UM, THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU, CHAIRMAN. I'M USED TO SAYING, YOUR HONOR, . THAT'S OKAY. FIRST WITNESS WE WOULD LIKE TO CALL IS BLAKE STEP, STEFAN ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER? YOU WANNA HAVE A SEAT AND MAYBE MORE COMFORTABLE IN THE CHAIR? GREEN LIGHT IS ON GREEN LIGHT. IT MEANS THE MICROPHONE IS ON. OKAY. STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE. UH, BLAKE STEFEN HOUR. AND WHERE ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED? UH, THE CITY OF BAYTOWN FIRE DEPARTMENT. WHAT, IN WHAT CAPACITY? I'M A ENGINEER OPERATOR AT STATION TWO. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN AN ENGINEER AND OPERATOR FOR STATION TWO? UH, IT'LL BE ONE YEAR IN DECEMBER. ALRIGHT, BUT HOW LONG, YOU SAID YOU WORKED FOR THE, FOR THE BAYTOWN FIRE DEPARTMENT FOR 12 YEARS, OR YOU'VE BEEN A FIREMAN FOR 12 YEARS? UH, I'VE BEEN A FIREFIGHTER FOR, I, I'VE BEEN WITH BAYTOWN FIRE DEPARTMENT FOR 11 YEARS, NINE MONTHS. UH, DECEMBER OF LAST YEAR IS WHEN I PROMOTED TO ENGINEER. UH, I THINK IT WAS AROUND DECEMBER 2ND. HAVE YOU, WERE YOU A FIREFIGHTER BEFORE STARTING TO WORK FOR, UH, BAYTOWN? UH, YES SIR. WHERE, HOW LONG WERE YOU A FIREFIGHTER BEFORE WORKING AT BAYAN? UH, I, I GOT OUTTA THE FIRE ACADEMY AND HAD MY STATE CERTIFICATION IN 2011. SO ABOUT 14, 15 YEARS? YES, SIR. NOW, YOU KNEW ON MAY 12TH THAT YOU HAD TO HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE, A VALID STATE ISSUED DRIVER'S LICENSE TO OPERATE ONE OF THOSE FIRE ENGINES, DIDN'T YOU? MAY 12TH. I WAS NOT AWARE. I, I WAS NOT AWARE OF THE STATUS OF MY DRIVER'S LICENSE, BUT IT DIDN'T MATTER WHETHER YOU KNEW, I'M JUST ASKING, DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE A VALID DRIVER'S LICENSE? YES, SIR. DID YOU ALSO KNOW THAT IF THERE'S ANY STATUS IN THAT, THAT YOU HAD AN OBLIGATION TO REPORT TO YOUR SUPERVISOR? ANY CHANGE OF THAT STATUS? YES, SIR. SO YOU KNEW THAT BEFORE ANYBODY STARTED REACHING OUT TO YOU? UH, I, I KNEW THAT IF MY LICENSE WAS EXPIRED, THAT I WAS TO HANDLE IT AND LET MY SUPERVISOR KNOW. YES, SIR. ALRIGHT. NOW LET'S, LET'S GO BACK TO, I THINK YOUR ANSWER TO THE, UH, TO THE, TO THE OTHER QUESTION. [00:20:01] YOU SAID THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT WAS GONNA EXPIRE ON MAY THE 28TH, OR, BUT YOU DID KNOW ON MAY 12TH WHEN THAT EMAIL WAS SENT, RIGHT? CORRECT. BUT EITHER WAY, BEFORE MAY 12TH, YOU KNEW YOU HAD TO HAVE A DRIVER'S LICENSE TO WORK AS AN ENGINEER IN BAYTOWN? YES, SIR. WHO IS YOUR DIRECT SUPERVISOR? UH, I HAVE A, A CAPTAIN AT MY STATION. WHO IS THAT? THAT WOULD BE, UH, JOSH YOUNG. OKAY. SO IF IT SAYS, ALL MEMBERS SHALL REPORT TO THEIR SUPERVISOR, ANY CHANGE IN THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSE STATUS, YOUR SUPERVISOR WOULD BE JOSH YOUNG? UH, YES SIR. ALRIGHT. WOULD IT HAVE BEEN JOSH YOUNG ON MAY THE 12TH? YES. SO AT ALL TIMES RELEVANT TO THIS DRIVER'S LICENSE SUSPENSION, UH, JOSH YOUNG WAS YOUR, UH, DIRECT SUPERVISOR? HE'S, YES. OKAY. ALRIGHT. LET ME HAND YOU, I JUST HANDED YOU A COPY OF ALL OF THE EXHIBITS THAT HAVE BEEN ADMITTED INTO THIS TRIAL. THEY'RE NOT TABS. YOU MAY HAVE TO HAVE TO SCROLL DOWN. UH, SO LET'S GO TO YOUR STATEMENT. THAT'S GONNA BE EXHIBIT ON MY LIST. ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO DOWN TO YOUR STATEMENT. IT WOULD BE EXHIBIT J EIGHT AND THE COMMISSIONERS, I ASK THAT YOU PULL OUT EXHIBIT J 14. THAT IS THE TIMELINE IN THIS FOR THIS EVENT. AND YOU CAN SEE CERTAIN DATES. AND, UM, AND CHIEF DOBSON WILL EXPLAIN MORE AT THIS. I THINK YOU, YOU CREATED THIS RIGHT? CHIEF DOBSON WILL TESTIFY TO THIS MORE, BUT THIS IS A, A BREAKDOWN OF THE DATES AND, AND OF THE NOTIFICATIONS. HAVE YOU SEEN EXHIBIT J 14? YES, SIR. THIS TIMELINE. OKAY. SO YOU'RE, YOU'RE AWARE THAT IT, IT EXISTS, RIGHT? YES, SIR. ALRIGHT. NOW LET'S GO TO YOUR STATEMENT, WHICH IS J EIGHT. OKAY. SO WHEN DID YOU WRITE THIS STATEMENT, UM, UH, HAVE IT DATED HERE IS, UH, AUGUST 8TH. SO YOU'VE PROVIDED TWO, TWO STATEMENTS CONCERNING THIS EVENT, UM, TO EITHER INTERNAL AFFAIRS OR THROUGH, UH, CHIEF DOBSON. IS THAT CORRECT? YES, SIR. AND THIS IS THE FIRST OF THE TWO EXHIBITS? UH, YES. YES, SIR. UM, IS THE, IS THE, THE OTHER EXHIBIT ON HERE, I'M SORRY. UH, YEAH, IT'S, UM, LOOK AT, UH, J 13 IS THE OTHER EXHIBIT [00:25:02] J EIGHT AND J 13? YES, SIR. THIS IS THE FIRST ONE. OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WOULD YOU READ THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH PLEASE? UH, TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN, I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN BY EXPRESSING MY SINCERE EMBARRASSMENT AND REGRET REGARDING THE EXPIRATION OF MY DRIVER'S LICENSE AND THE LENGTH OF TIME IT WENT UNNOTICED. I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS OVERSIGHT AND DEEPLY APOLOGIZE FOR THE POTENTIAL LIABILITY AND CONCERN HAS CAUSED THE CITY AND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. SO YOU SAID YOU'LL TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY, CORRECT? YES, SIR. UM, BUT AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T CONCERN 12 HOURS OF, UH, UH, 12 HOURS OF DISCIPLINE, IS THAT CORRECT? IS GAVE, I DON'T, I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION. I'M SORRY, I I'LL WITHDRAW THE QUESTION. YOU'RE SAYING THAT MAY 28TH, 2025 IS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU WERE AWARE THAT YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE WAS EXPIRING? YES, SIR. AND THAT WAS ABOUT THE TIME IT EXPIRED, CORRECT? UM, MY DRIVER'S LICENSE EXPIRED MAY 24TH. MAY 24TH? YES, SIR. AND, UH, HOW DID YOU LEARN THAT YOU WERE, THAT YOUR LICENSE WAS EXPIRING? UH, WHEN I WAS AT WORK ON THE 28TH, I GOT A PHONE CALL FROM CHIEF SHEFFIELD, UH, ASKING ME IF I HAD RENEWED MY DRIVER'S LICENSE AND I HAD NO IDEA OF IT, PULLED IT OUTTA MY POCKET, SAW THAT IT WAS EXPIRED, AND TOLD HIM I'D WORK ON GETTING IT DONE AS QUICK AS I COULD. ALL RIGHT. SO NOW IF WE'RE LOOKING AT EXHIBIT J 14 , THAT'S STARTING IN ON MAY THE 28TH, AND IT LOOKS LIKE YOU WERE ON SHIFT THAT DAY AND STAFF STEF AND I REACHED OUT TO YOU REGARDING YOUR LICENSE RENEWAL, CORRECT? I MEAN, SHEFFIELD, REGARDING YOUR LICENSE RE, UH, RENEWAL, CORRECT? YES, SIR. ALL RIGHT. NOW YOU, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE WAS AN EMAIL SENT MAY 12TH, BUT YOU'RE SAYING THAT YOU DIDN'T RECEIVE IT BECAUSE YOU WERE OUTTA WORK BETWEEN MAY 12TH AND MAY 28TH, CORRECT? CORRECT. AND YOU CAN ONLY GET YOUR WORK EMAILS AT WORK? YES, SIR. YOU DON'T HAVE ANY WAY TO GET YOUR EMAILS AT HOME? NO, SIR. ALL RIGHT. AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO TO GET YOUR LICENSE BETWEEN MAY 29TH UNTIL JUNE 25TH? UH, THE, THE DAY THAT HE CALLED, I IMMEDIATELY GOT ONLINE TO RENEW IT. UM, I WAS MET WITH A PAGE, UH, I WANTED ONE OF THE EXHIBITS ON YOUR, THAT I GOT FROM THE STATE, UM, SAYING THINGS ALONG THE LINES OF ELIGIBLE AND, UH, NO ACTION NEEDED AND ASSUMED THAT I WOULD BE GETTING SENT A COPY OF MY DRIVER'S LICENSE. UM, AND I FORWARDED THAT TO CHIEF SHEFFIELD TO LET HIM KNOW. AND THROUGH THAT TIME TO THE 25TH, KIND OF WAS EXPECTING ONE TO SHOW UP IN THE MAIL. ALRIGHT. SO IT LOOKS LIKE YOU TOOK SOME ACTION ON THE 28TH AND THEN YOU DIDN'T DO ANYTHING BETWEEN THE 29TH AND JUNE 24TH, IS THAT CORRECT? UH, THAT IS CORRECT. UH, AND YOU WERE ON, YOU WERE, YOU HAD MAY 30TH THROUGH JUNE 2ND OFF, AND YOU TOOK NO ACTION. [00:30:02] YOU HAD JUNE 5TH THROUGH JUNE, JUNE 8TH OFF, YOU TOOK NO ACTION. YOU HAD JUNE 11TH THROUGH JUNE 14TH, OFF, YOU TOOK NO ACTION. YOU HAD JUNE 17TH THROUGH JUNE 20TH OFF, YOU TOOK NO ACTION REALLY. YOU HAD JUNE 17TH THROUGH JUNE 24TH, AND YOU TOOK NO ACTION, CORRECT? YES, SIR. ALRIGHT. NOW LET'S GO TO THAT SCREENSHOT THAT YOU SAID THAT YOU GOT FROM OBJECT. THIS RESPOND J NINE. LET'S GO TO EXHIBIT J NINE. IT'S JUST ONE PAGE. MINE MAY BE HARD TO FIND, IT'S JUST ONE PAGE. OH, I'M SORRY. I HAVE IT. OH, YOU HAVE IT. I'M SORRY. I DIDN'T, YOU THOUGHT YOU WAS STILL LOOKING? I, I APOLOGIZE. ALRIGHT. IS THIS THE WEBPAGE THAT YOU, UM, PRODUCED BACK ON MAY THE 28TH AS PROOF THAT YOUR LICENSE, UH, IS, SHOULD BE, IS RENEWED? NOT, NOT PROOF THAT IT'S RENEWED, BUT, BUT IT, I'VE LOOKED AT IT AS ELIGIBLE. I, I REALLY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO TAKE THIS PAGE. I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS PAGE BEFORE AND COULDN'T INTERPRET IT VERY WELL. ALL RIGHT. YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR JOB, DID YOU UNDERSTAND WHEN YOU LOOKED ON HERE AND TRIED TO GET YOUR LICENSE RENEWED, DO YOU UNDERSTAND, DID YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOUR JOB OF, UM, BEING ABLE TO WORK YOUR LIVELIHOOD WAS, UH, AT RISK IF YOU DID NOT TAKE CARE OF THIS? I, I UNDERSTOOD MY JOB REQUIRED ME TO HAVE A, A DRIVER'S LICENSE. ALRIGHT, IF WE LOOK AT J NINE, IT SAYS BLAKE, IT'S GOT YOUR NAME, BLAKE STEFANO AT THE TOP. SO THAT, I ASSUME THAT MEANS YOU LOGGED INTO, UM, UH, THE DMV AND, AND YOU COME UP TO THE, I MEAN, COME UP TO THIS SCREEN AND PRINTED IT OFF, OR IS THAT CORRECT? I, I CAME TO THE SCREEN AND, AND TOOK A PICTURE OF IT TO LET CHIEF SHEFFIELD KNOW WHAT I FOUND. I TEXTED TO HIM ALL, SHOW ME WHERE ON HERE IT SAYS THAT YOUR LICENSE GOT RENEWED. UH, IT, IT DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT BEING RENEWED. IT JUST SAYS ELIGIBLE AND NO, UM, ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS TO COMPLETE. UM, UH, SO WAIT A MINUTE. LEMME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE. ELIGIBLE IS ON HERE SEVERAL TIMES. WHERE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? UH, STATUS? YOUR LICENSE STATUS IS CURRENTLY ELIGIBLE. UM, ANYWHERE ELSE, UH, BE BELOW COMPLIANCE REQUIREMENTS SAYS YOU DO NOT HAVE, YOU DO NOT HAVE COMPLIANCE REQUIREMENTS TO COMPLETE AT THIS TIME. YOU DO NOT HAVE ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS TO COMPLETE AT THIS TIME. YOU HAVE NO FEES THAT CAN BE PAID ONLINE AT THIS TIME. UM, I MEAN THAT'S, I GUESS IT SAYS ELIGIBLE ONE TIME OR A STATUS. A STATUS OF ELIGIBLE MEANS YOU ARE ALLOWED TO DRIVE IF YOU HAVE A VALID DRIVER'S LICENSE IN YOUR POSSESSION. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALID DRIVER'S LICENSE, YOU'RE ELIGIBLE TO APPLY FOR ONE, JUST STOP BY ANY DRIVER'S LICENSE OFFICE LOCATION. SO THAT, THAT WAS MISSED IN THE ORIGINAL READING, THE DEFINITION OF ELIGIBLE WAS MISSED IN THE ORIGINAL READING? YES. SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT [00:35:01] THE STATEMENT, YOU MAKE SURE I GET THIS CORRECT, YOUR LICENSE STATUS IS CURRENTLY ELIGIBLE PLUS DOWN HERE IT SAYS YOU DO NOT HAVE COMPLIANCE REQUIREMENTS TO COMPLETE AT THIS TIME, PLUS YOU DO NOT HAVE ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS TO COMPLETE AT THIS TIME. PLUS YOU HAVE NO FEES THAT CAN BE PAID ONLINE AT THIS TIME. THOSE THINGS LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT YOUR LICENSE WAS RENEWED AND YOU DIDN'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING ELSE. YES, SIR. I, I, AFTER READING THIS, I ASSUMED THAT THERE WAS GONNA BE SOMETHING SENT TO ME. IT, IT SEEMED AS IF THERE WAS NO OTHER ACTION FOR ME, BUT IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE ON HERE BESIDES WHAT I DESCRIBED THAT LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT YOUR LICENSE WAS ALREADY RENEWED? UM, NO, SIR. SO YOU DIDN'T PAY ANY MONEY OR ANYTHING AT THIS TIME, RIGHT? NO, SIR. YOU DIDN'T, YOU DIDN'T. UM, DID YOU FILL OUT ANY APPLICATIONS OR TAKE A PICTURE OR DO ANY OF THAT STUFF? NO, SIR. I, I WAS, IT HAD BEEN, UH, ROUGHLY SEVEN OR EIGHT YEARS OR SO SINCE I HAD DONE THIS BEFORE. AND I KNOW THAT COVID HAD BEEN IN THAT TIMEFRAME AND I WASN'T, I I DIDN'T KNOW HOW THE SYSTEM, IF IT HAD CHANGED OR HOW IT WORKED OR WHAT. MM-HMM . YOU'RE NOT TELLING THE, THE COMMISSION THAT ELIGIBLE MEANS RENEWED, ARE YOU? NO, SIR. LET'S LOOK AT SOME MORE YOUR STATEMENT. WHAT'D I DO WITH IT ALL? SO THE NEXT PARAGRAPH SAYS, EVENTUALLY I DISCOVERED THAT I HAD RE THAT BECAUSE I HAD RENEWED MY OWN, THAT I HAD RENEWED ONLINE DURING MY LAST CYCLE. I WAS NOW REQUIRED TO RENEW IN PERSON. YOU SEE THAT? UH, YES, SIR. WHAT EXHIBIT WAS THAT AGAIN? EIGHT J EIGHT? YES, SIR. YEAH, IT'S THE, UM, THE PARAGRAPH A SEE AFTER THE ONE WE'D DONE BEFORE. YOU SEE THAT? YES, SIR. EVENTUALLY. WHAT DATE DOES THAT MEAN? UM, BECAUSE IT'S, YOU'VE GOT BETWEEN, UH, MAY 8TH TO AUGUST 5TH, UH, MAY REALLY MAY 12TH TO AUGUST 5TH BEFORE YOU ACTUALLY GOT, WENT IN AND GOT YOUR LICENSE RENEWED. SO THAT'S A PRETTY, QUITE A BIT OF DAYS. WE'RE CURIOUS AS TO WHAT DATE EVENTUALLY MEANS THAT YOU DISCOVERED YOU HAD TO GO IN PERSON. I I CAN'T RECALL THE DATE. DO YOU KNOW IF IT WAS IN MAY? NO, SIR. DO YOU KNOW IF IT WAS IN JUNE? NO, SIR. DO YOU KNOW IF IT WAS IN JULY? NO, SIR. DO YOU KNOW IF IT WAS IN AUGUST? UH, IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN BEFORE AUGUST, SO MAYBE SOMETIME IN JULY. MAYBE MAYBE SOMETIME IN JUNE. YOU DON'T REMEMBER? I DON'T REMEMBER. ON AUGUST 8TH, THAT'S WHEN YOU FINALLY FOUND THE EMAIL THAT WAS SENT ON MAY THE 12TH? YES, SIR. SIR ON CHIEF SHEFFIELD? YES, SIR. SO ALL OF THESE OTHER DATES THAT YOU WORKED, YOU NEVER LOOKED AT YOUR EMAILS BETWEEN MAY 12TH AND AUGUST 8TH? I I MAKE IT A POINT WHEN I GET INTO TO LOOK AS FAR BACK IN EMAILS AS I CAN. AND, UM, IN SOME INSTANCES, IF WE HAVE A CALL FIRST THING IN THE MORNING AND I GET PULLED AWAY FROM MY EMAILS, I MIGHT NOT REMEMBER TO COME BACK AND CONTINUE LOOKING DOWN. AND, UM, I DID NOT, I DID NOT MAKE IT DOWN TO THAT EMAIL OF MAY 12TH MM-HMM . UNTIL AUGUST 8TH? YES, SIR. UM, THE NEXT PARAGRAPH STARTS WITH, I RECOGNIZE THAT I SHOULD HAVE IMMEDIATELY INFORMED MY SUPERIORS UPON REALIZING MY LICENSE HAD BEEN EXPIRED INSTEAD OF TRYING TO RESOLVE IT ON MY OWN, CORRECT? YES. SO YOU ADMITTED AGAIN THERE THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE NOTIFIED YOUR, YOUR, YOUR SUPERVISOR. [00:40:01] LET'S GO TO YOUR SECOND STATEMENT. I THINK IT WAS TH J 13. HAVE YOU FOUND THAT? YES, SIR. NOW, TH THIS STATEMENT WAS GIVEN AFTER THE PROBABLE CAUSE A LETTER WAS READ TO YOU BY CHIEF DOBSON, CORRECT? UM, I, I BELIEVE THERE WERE TWO LETTERS THAT I GOT FROM CHIEF DOBSON. THE, THE FIRST RESPONSE I HAVE HERE WAS, WAS, UH, A RESPONSE TO THE ALLEGATIONS. AND THE SECOND ONE, UH, WAS THE RESPONSE TO THE, UH, UH, THE, I GUESS THE DISCIPLINARY ACTION? I THINK. WOULD YOU READ THE, UH, THE FIRST PARAGRAPH? I, UH, DEAR CHIEF, I WANNA EXPRESS MY SINCERE, UH, UNDERSTANDING AND REGRET REGARDING MY RECENT ACTIONS OF OPERATING A CITY VEHICLE WITH AN EXPIRED DRIVER'S LICENSE. I RECOGNIZE THE LIABILITY THAT BRINGSS TO THE CITY, THE FIRE DEPARTMENT, AND MYSELF. I TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS OVERSIGHT AND UNDERSTAND THAT MAINTAINING A DRIVER'S LICENSE AS WELL AS STAYING CURRENT WITH ALL REQUIRED CERTIFICATIONS IS ENTIRELY MY RESPONSIBILITY. I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT I WILL NOT OVERLOOK ANY RENEWAL REQUIREMENTS IN THE FUTURE. YOU SAID I RECOGNIZE THE LIABILITY THIS BRINGS TO THE CITY. WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT? THAT IF I WERE TO HAVE HURT ANYONE OR DAMAGED ANY PROPERTY OF THE CITY AND WITH AN EXPIRED LICENSE, THAT THAT'S, THAT'S NOT OKAY. SO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THERE'S LIABILITY TO THE CITY IF YOU WERE OPERATING A CITY EQUIPMENT WITHOUT A VALID STATE LICENSE DRIVING LICENSE, CORRECT? YES, SIR. ALL RIGHT. SO AGAIN, GOING BACK TO THIS TIMELINE, J 14, ON JUNE 25TH, YOU GOT ANOTHER TEXT ASKING, ASKING IF YOU HAD YOUR LICENSE RENEWED. IS THAT CORRECT? YES, SIR. AND YOU RESPONDED? NO. OKAY, SIR, I'LL STILL, I STILL NEED TO ON THE 26TH, CORRECT? YES, SIR. ALL RIGHT. YOU WERE ON VACATION THROUGH JULY THE SECOND. WHAT ACTION DID YOU TAKE TO GET YOUR LICENSE RENEWED? UH, I'M, I'M NOT SURE. THIS, I'M NOT SURE. UH, SO NO ACTION TO, I'M NOT SURE. CORRECT. CORRECT. AND THEN AGAIN, ON JULY 5TH TO JULY 8TH, WHAT ACTION DID YOU TAKE TO SECURE YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE? UM, I'M NOT SURE. SAME, SAME ANSWER, NO ACTION TO, I'M NOT SURE. AND THEN YOU HAD A KELLY DAY WHERE CHIEF, UH, SHEFIELD SENT YOU ANOTHER TEXT. SO THIS IS THE THIRD TEXT, I THINK THIRD TEXT AND AN EMAIL THAT HE SENT YOU. AND THERE HADN'T BEEN ANY ACTION ON THIS, CORRECT? CORRECT. I WAS, I, I'M THROUGH THE TIME OF JUNE. I'M, I'M ASSUMING, I WAS STILL FIGURING OUT IF THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S GETTING SENT TO ME OR NOT, AND TRYING TO DIG DEEPER INTO IF THERE'S SOMETHING THAT COULD BE DONE ONLINE OR, OR WHAT STEPS TO TAKE. WELL, YOU DIDN'T TELL THAT TO ANYBODY INVOLVED IN THIS CASE BEFORE TODAY, DID YOU? UH, I'M, DID I, DID I TELL ANYBODY THAT I WAS TRYING TO GET MY DRIVER'S LICENSE DONE THAT YOU HAD TAKEN ANY OTHER ACTION BESIDES WHAT'S ON THIS TIME [00:45:01] LIST TO GET YOUR DRIVER'S LICENSE RENEWED? I MEAN, THROUGH, THROUGHOUT THIS TIMELINE, I'M, I'M TRYING TO GET MY DRIVER'S LICENSE RENEWED. AND SO JULY 8TH, THEY SENT ANOTHER TEXT TO YOU AND THERE WAS, YOU SAID NO ACTION, UH, THROUGH THE 15TH, OR MAYBE YOU WERE DOING IT, UH, OR MAYBE YOU WERE DOING IT, AND THEN YOU WERE ON SHIFT, YOU RESPONDED TO STEFAN, I, YOU, I MEAN, SHEFFIELD'S TEXT ON JULY 9TH STATING, I'M GOING IN TO GET IT DONE. AND YOU WENT TO DPS TO RENEW AND THEY TOLD HIM YOU'D, YOU'D HAVE TO MAKE A APPOINTMENT OR AN APPOINTMENT, IS THAT CORRECT? YES, SIR. AND THAT'S WHEN YOU GOT THE DATE FOR THE AUGUST 5TH? YES, SIR. SO UP UNTIL FROM MAY 12TH TO JULY 14TH, YOU NEVER WENT INTO A DMP, DID YOU? CORRECT. AND THEN WE WERE JUST WAITING THE END OF JULY. AND THEN, LET'S SEE, SHEFIELD TEXTED YOU AGAIN ON JULY 29TH, AND AT SOME POINT YOU WERE NOTIFIED OPERATIONS WERE NOTIFIED, AND YOU WERE PUT ON ADMIN DUTY. WAS THAT JULY 29TH? UM, I BELIEVE SO. UH, SO THE OPERATIONS DIVISION WAS NOT NOTIFIED TILL JULY 29TH? CORRECT. AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, UM, HA HAVING CHIEF SHEFFIELD BEING MY CONTACT, I, I WOULD ASSUME THAT THAT ADMIN IS NOTIFIED, UH, THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE PROCESS. I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT BY SPEAKING WITH HIM, I'M SPEAKING TO A SUPERVISOR AND SOMEONE A PART OF ADMINISTRATION. WELL, HAVE YOU LEARNED DIFFERENTLY SINCE, SIR, HAVE YOU LEARNED THAT THAT BELIEF WAS INCORRECT? UM, NO, SIR. SO WHO IS JO, YOU SAID JOSH YOUNG WAS YOUR DIRECT SUPERVISOR? THAT'S CORRECT. I MEAN, THE MAY 28TH WHEN I RECEIVED THAT PHONE CALL FROM CHIEF SHEFFIELD, I LET MY CAPTAIN KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON. HE WAS AWARE OF THE SITUATION AND SEEING THAT. WHEN DID YOU DO THAT? UM, THE 20 OR MAY 28TH. MAY 28TH. YOU LET WHO KNOW? I, I LET MY CAPTAIN KNOW THAT I WAS IN COMMUNICATIONS WITH CHIEF SHEFFIELD REGARDING MY DRIVER'S LICENSE. YOU'RE SAYING THAT SHEFIELD WAS YOUR CAPTAIN? HE'S MY BATTALION CHIEF OR A BATTALION CHIEF. BUT HE WORKS IN THE TRAINING DIVISION, RIGHT? YES, SIR. WHICH IS STILL THE SUPERVISOR ROLE TO ME. BUT YOU, I'M NOT UNDERSTANDING. HE ALL RIGHT. ALL. BUT YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT SHERIFF FIELDS'S IN OPERATIONS TRAINING IN TRAINING NOT IN OPERATIONS. YES. NOW I WANT TO TAKE YOU TO EXHIBIT J TWO. [00:50:14] YEAH. ALL RIGHT. J TWO, PAGE TWO, SECTION TH 3 23 0.7. YOU. DID YOU FIND IT? YES, SIR. 3 23 0.7 STATES THAT ALL MEMBERS SHALL POSSESS A VALID ISSU STATE ISSUED DRIVER'S LICENSE OF THE CLASS REQUIRED FOR THEIR ASSIGNED DUTIES. YOU'VE ALREADY TESTIFIED THAT PART OF YOUR DUTIES WERE OPERATING A, UH, FIRE ENGINE. UH, SO WOULD YOU AGREE THAT YOU DIDN'T COMPLY WITH THIS POLICY? YES, SIR. I WOULD AGREE. AND THAT, THAT, THAT IS FROM MAY THE 24TH THROUGH, UM, AUGUST THE FIFTH, 2025? YES, SIR. ALL RIGHT. I WANT TO GO TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH. NOW IT SAYS, ALL MEMBERS SHALL REPORT TO THEIR SUPERVISOR ANY CHANGE IN THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSE STATUS. IS THAT CORRECT? YES, SIR. AND JOSH YOUNG WAS YOUR SUPERVISOR ON MAY 24TH THROUGH AUGUST THE FIFTH? YES, SIR. UM, JOHN SHEFFIELD BEING A BATTALION CHIEF WOULD ALSO BE A SUPERVISOR ROLE, IN MY OPINION, IN BEING A RINK ABOVE CAPTAIN. HE WOULD ALS AL ALMOST ALSO BE MY CAPTAIN SUPERVISOR. SO YOU, WELL, DO YOU THINK YOU WERE IN VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION FROM MAY 24TH THROUGH AUGUST THE FIFTH? YES, SIR. I DO. YOU WERE IN VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION? YES, SIR. ALRIGHT. AND DO YOU SEE THE LAST SENTENCE, FAILURE TO MAINTAIN A VALID DRIVER'S LICENSE IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EMPLOYEE? EACH CURRENT CLASSIFICATION SPECIFICATION MAY RESULT IN DISCIPLINARY ACTION? YES, SIR. I SEE THAT. AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED HERE, CORRECT? CORRECT. NOW I WANT TO, I WANT TO TAKE YOU TO J ONE. YOU GOT IT? YES, SIR. I'M SORRY. GUESS I'M GOING TO SLEEP OVER HERE. ALRIGHT. THIS IS THE DISCIPLINARY DETERMINATION THAT WAS THE RESULT OF THE IA AND, UH, UM, UH, IT'S WHAT THE CHIEF DOBSON GAVE YOU AS DISCIPLINE, DIS AS DISCIPLINE FOR, UM, BASICALLY NOT HAVING A DRIVER'S LICENSE FOR THOSE DATES. MAY 24TH THROUGH AUGUST 5TH. UH, DO YOU AGREE THAT THIS IS THE CHIEF DOBSON'S DISCIPLINARY DETERMINATION? YES, SIR. AND YOU APPEALED THIS DETERMINATION, CORRECT? YES, SIR. DID YOU APPEAL IT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T, YOU DISAGREE? NO. LET ME ASK YOU, WHY DID YOU APPEAL THIS DECISION? UM, I WAS, I FELT LIKE I WAS MAINTAINING CONTACT WITH THE SUPERVISOR THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS. UM, I WAS, I'VE, I'VE, I'VE NEVER BEEN IN A PROCESS LIKE THIS [00:55:01] OR, OR BEEN WRITTEN UP OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT. AND TELL LAUREN THAT I WAS GETTING 12 HOURS OFF, WHICH WAS AT MY RATE IS ROUGHLY ABOUT A $500 FINE. THEN I, I DECIDED I SHOULD APPEAL THIS TO, AS, AS A, TO GET A, A, JUST, JUST A, A WRITEUP AS A FIRST OFFENSE. SO IT'S, IT'S, IT'S YOUR BELIEF THAT THE PUNISHMENT IS NOT REASONABLE YES, SIR. THAT YOU SHOULD RECEIVE, UH, JUST A WRITEUP AND NOT ACTUAL DISCIPLINE. CORRECT. NOT TO BE SENT HOME IN 12 HOURS DEDUCTED. ALRIGHT. ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS DETERMINATION THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH? UM, NO, SIR. SO REALLY, WE'RE ONLY TALKING ABOUT THEN WHAT IS FAIR AND JUST FOR THE FACTS OF THIS CASE IS, IS THAT REALLY THE ONLY ISSUE THAT THIS COMMISSION NEEDS TO DETERMINE? YES, SIR. AND SO YOU AGREE THAT SOME DISCIPLINE IS WARRANTED IN THIS CASE, BUT THIS ONE IS JUST TOO MUCH, IT'S NOT REASONABLE? YES, SIR. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THEY COULD GIVE YOU MORE THAN WHAT CHIEF DOBSON GAVE YOU? YES, SIR. I DO. UH, AND OF COURSE, YOU CAN UNDER YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ALSO CAN ORDER YOU REIMBURSED IF THEY DECIDE IT WAS UNREASONABLE? YES, SIR. ALRIGHT. UH, LET ME TURN YOUR ATTENTION TO EXHIBIT J 15. YEAH, I HAVE IT. ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO REVIEW THIS EXHIBIT? UH, NO, SIR. I'VE, I MEAN, I'VE, I'VE, YES, I'VE, I'VE HEARD OF THESE OTHER ONES, BUT I HAVE NOT LIKE, LOOKED INTO EACH INDIVIDUAL CASE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOUR REPRESENTATIVE ASKED FOR ME, UH, FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF THE CITY TO PROVIDE IS, UM, OTHER CASES, I THINK OVER A THREE YEAR PERIOD WHERE THE DEPARTMENT HAS GIVEN, UH, 12 YEARS DIS 12 HOURS DISCIPLINE TO OTHER, TO OTHER, UH, GRIEVANCE. SO YOU WERE AWARE THAT THESE OTHER DETERMINATIONS WERE OUT THERE? UH, NOT UNTIL THE LAST FEW DAYS? YES, SIR. MM-HMM. SO YOU JUST, YOU SEE THAT SOMEONE WHO DID AN ILLEGAL TURN GOT 12 HOURS? YES, SIR. YOU SEE SOMEONE WITH BACKING WITHOUT A SPOTTER GOT 12 HOURS. YES, SIR. SOMEONE WITH BACKING WITHOUT A SPOTTER GOT 12 HOURS. YES, SIR. AND DISCOURTESY TO FELLOW EMPLOYEES, RUMORS GOT 12 HOURS. YOU SEE THAT? YES, SIR. I WAS, I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION, AND, AND I MIGHT BE WRONG, BUT I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT SOME OF THESE ENDED WITH CITY PROPERTY DAMAGE OR VEHICLE DAMAGE. BUT YOU CAN SEE WHERE OTHER INCIDENCES WHERE CHIEF DOBSONS HAS GIVEN FIREFIGHTERS AND ENGINEERS 12 HOURS OF DISCIPLINE. YES, SIR. WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S UNREASONABLE IN THIS CASE? UM, THIS IS THE FIRST WRITEUP I'VE EVER RECEIVED. UM, I GUESS I, I HAD DIDN'T DESTRUCT ANY PROPERTY. UM, MR. STEFAN, I COULD, COULD YOU SPEAK JUST A LITTLE LOUDER AND INTO THE MICROPHONE? YES, SIR. I'M HAVING TROUBLE HEARING YOUR, YOUR ANSWERS. SORRY ABOUT THAT. UM, THIS IS, THIS IS MY FIRST OFFENSE, UH, [01:00:01] OF BEING WRITTEN UP OR ANY KIND OF DISCIPLINARY ACTION. UM, AND ALSO NOT CAUSING ANY DESTRUCTION TO ANY CITY VEHICLES OR CITIZENS', VEHICLES OR PROPERTY. OKAY. SO IN YOUR EYES, DRIVING OVER TWO MONTHS WITHOUT A DRIVER'S LICENSE IS A LESS, IS NOT, I MEAN, IT'S, IT DOESN'T MEET, IT DOESN'T COME TO MEET THESE OTHER GRIEVANCES STANDARDS? CORRECT? IS THAT, IS THAT, I, I I HONESTLY HAVE, UH, I DON'T, I I KNOW THAT IT WAS, IT'S NOT OKAY. I KNOW THAT IT'S AGAINST THE LAW, AND I I UNDERSTAND THAT, UM, I GUESS FOR, AS A FIRST TIME OFFENSE IS PROBABLY MORE OF WHERE I'M, I'M LEANING TO AS FAR AS, UM, NOT MEETING THE PUNISHMENT. UH, SHEFIELD, YOU SAID, YOU'RE SAYING THAT SHEFFIELD WAS YOUR CAPTAIN? NO, SIR. HMM. YOUNGEST. YOU'RE SAYING THAT SHEFFIELD IS YOUR BATTALION COMMAND BATTALION CHIEF? HE'S A BATTALION CHIEF? YES, SIR. BUT HE'S YOUR BATTALION CHIEF, CORRECT? NO, SIR. HE'S THE BATTALION CHIEF OF TRAINING. ALRIGHT. SO HE'S NOT REALLY OVER YOU AT ALL. RIGHT. I WOULD CONSIDER THAT HE IS BEING TWO RANKS ABOVE ME. I, I MEAN, NOT DIRECTLY AT, INTO HIS, INTO YOUR, UM, DIVISION AT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. I WOULD, I WOULD SAY THAT HE AFFECTS ALL THE DIVISIONS HE'S IN. YEAH. I MEAN, I WOULD CONSIDER HIM IN, IN MY DIVISION. ALL RIGHT. WELL, SHERIFF FIELD CALLED YOU ON MAY THE 28TH, AND IF HE IS ABOVE YOU, WHY DIDN'T YOU FOLLOW HIS INSTRUCTIONS ON THAT DAY? I, I BELIEVE I DID. UM, HE TEXTED YOU AGAIN JUNE 25. JUNE 25TH, YOU RESPONDED? NO. OKAY, SIR, I STILL NEED TO, SO YOU ADMITTED THAT, THAT YOU HADN'T DONE IT YET ON JUNE THE 25TH, 26TH. YES, SIR. AND THEN IF SHEFIELD, YOUR BATTALION CHIEF, HE SENT YOU ANOTHER CH TEXT JULY 9TH AND YOU STILL DIDN'T DO IT RIGHT. SO IS THIS FOLLOWING, IS THIS SUBORDINATION OR IS THIS NOT FOLLOWING AN ORDER OR NOT FOLLOWING INSTRUCTION? I, I WAS TRANSPARENT WITH HIM THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE PROCESS. I WAS NOT TRYING TO HIDE ANYTHING OR ELONGATE GETTING THIS DONE, UH, INTENTIONALLY OR IN ANY WAY. UM, I, I FELT LIKE I WAS MAINTAINING CONTACT WITH THE PROCESS THE ENTIRE TIME, ANYTHING. I GOT YOU. YOU STATED A MINUTE AGO THAT, THAT YOU STATED IN CONTACT AND, UM, UH, YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD COMPLIED WITH ALL HIS SHERIFF FIELD'S INSTRUCTIONS AND ORDERS? YES, SIR. BUT NONE OF THE [01:05:01] INITIAL TEXTS OR INITIAL, I GUESS THERE'S ONLY ONE EMAIL, BUT NONE, UH, NONE OF THAT WAS ORIGINATED BY YOU, CORRECT? NO, SIR. ALL OF THOSE EXCHANGES STARTED FROM BATTALION CHIEF SHEFFIELD TRYING TO GET YOU TO COMPLY WITH THE CITY POLICIES AND STATE LAW, CORRECT? YES, SIR. OKAY. ELSE PASS THE WITNESS. THANK YOU. OKAY. UM, WHAT DATE DID YOUR LICENSE EXPIRE? UH, MAY 24TH. MAY 24TH. THERE'S AN EMAIL SENT ON MAY 28TH OR MAY 12TH. I'M CORRECT? YES, SIR. WHAT WERE YOU DOING? MAY 12TH? UM, I WAS ON VACATION. OKAY. SO YOU'RE ON VACATION. AND BY THE TIMELINE, IF Y'ALL LOOK AT, UH, EXHIBIT 14 TIMELINE, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU RETURNED TO WORK ON MAY 28TH. YES, SIR. AND THAT IS WHEN YOU RECEIVED THE PHONE CALL FROM CHIEF SHEFFIELD? YES, SIR. SO THAT DAY, IF YOU LOOK AT J SORRY, J SEVEN, OR NO, SORRY, WHERE'S, WHERE IS THIS, UH, J THREE, I'M SORRY, J THREE IS THE RESPONSE TO CHIEF SHEFFIELD'S PHONE CALL THAT YOU WENT ON THE DPS WEBSITE TO LOOK AT THIS? YES, SIR. WITH THAT, WITH THE STATUS AND WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER, WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT EARLIER IN YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS, YOU BELIEVED THAT YOU WERE BASICALLY RENEWED OR THINGS WERE GONNA START HAPPENING, LICENSE WOULD BE SENT TO YOU, CORRECT? YES, SIR. OKAY. SO HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU HAD TO RENEW YOUR LICENSE SINCE YOU'VE WORKED WITH THE BAYTOWN FIRE DEPARTMENT? UM, THIS MIGHT HAVE BEEN MAYBE THE SECOND TIME. OKAY. MAYBE THE FIRST TIME. AND THE, THE TIME BEFORE THAT, DID YOU RENEW THAT ONLINE AS WELL? UM, I, YES. I, I, I EVENTUALLY LEARNED THAT EVERY OTHER, EVERY OTHER TIME YOU RENEW YOUR LICENSE, YOU CAN GO, YOU HAVE TO GO IN PERSON BY APPOINTMENT AND THEN ONLINE AND IT'S, IT'S EVERY OTHER TIME. SO I DIDN'T, I DIDN'T KNOW, I, I DIDN'T REMEMBER IF I HAD GONE IN PERSON OR ONLINE, AND APPARENTLY I HAD DONE IT ONLINE THE PREVIOUS TIME. OKAY. SO IN YOUR THOUGHT PROCESS THAT THIS WAS COMPLETELY RENEWABLE ONLINE, THERE WOULD BE NO REASON TO GO TAKE PICTURES OR ANYTHING ELSE TO BE DONE BESIDES GETTING ONLINE, DOING THE REQUIRED WEBSITES AND GETTING A COPY OF A NEW DRIVER'S LICENSE IN THE MAIL? CORRECT. AT WHATEVER TIME THE DPS OR THE STATE OF TEXAS DECIDES THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN? CORRECT. OKAY. UH, I'D LIKE TO TURN YOUR ATTENTION TO, UH, J TWO ON THE SECOND PAGE OF, UH, EXHIBIT J TWO IS, UH, THIS IS THE DRIVER'S LICENSE PROVISION WITHIN THE POLICY 3 23 3 23 23 0.7 DRIVER'S LICENSE. IN THE LAST STATEMENT ON THERE, CAN YOU PLEASE READ THE LAST PARAGRAPH RIGHT THERE ON UNDERNEATH THE DRIVER'S LICENSE SECTION, UH, ALL MEMBERS SHALL REPORT TO THEIR SUPERVISOR ANY CHANGE IN THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSE STATUS. FAILURE TO MAINTAIN A VALID DRIVER'S LICENSE IS IN ACCORDANCE WITH AN EMPLOYEE'S CURRENT CLASSIFICATION SPECIFICATION, A RESULT IN DISCIPLINARY ACTION. OKAY. IS, DO YOU SEE IN THERE ANYWHERE WHERE IT SAYS DIRECT SUPERVISOR? UH, NO, SIR. OKAY. IF I COULD ASK YOU A QUESTION, IF YOU WERE OUT SOMEWHERE AND SAW DIVISION CHIEF SHEFFIELD ON THE STREET AND HE GAVE YOU A LAWFUL ORDER, WOULD YOU ABIDE BY THAT LAWFUL ORDER? ABSOLUTELY. IS THERE ANY ANY REASON THAT YOU WOULDN'T? NO, SIR. WHY WOULD YOU ABIDE BY THAT LAW LAW LAWFUL ORDER? UH, HE IS A RANKING OFFICER ABOVE ME. OKAY. SO EVEN THOUGH HE'S NOT YOUR DIRECT SUPERVISOR, HE IS, YOU'RE SAYING HE'S A SUPERVISOR WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT, WITHIN THE BAYTOWN FIRE DEPARTMENT? CORRECT. [01:10:02] SO, LEMME ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION. IF THE TEXT MESSAGE THREAD THAT WAS SENT BETWEEN YOU TWO, WHICH IS J THREE THROUGH SIX, I BELIEVE, AND ALL OF THOSE, DID YOU ANSWER HIM PRETTY MUCH RIGHT AWAY FOR EVERY TEXT HE EVER SENT YOU? UH, YES SIR. OKAY. SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THERE'S NO, AS, AS YOU SAID, THERE WAS NO TRYING TO HIDE THIS OR TRYING TO ELONGATE THIS OF ANY, ANY KIND. NO, SIR. NOT AT ALL. TRYING, TRYING TO GET THIS FIGURED OUT. RIGHT. OKAY. I KNOW YOU'VE ALREADY STATED THIS, HAVE YOU EVER BEEN BROUGHT INTO THE CHIEF'S OFFICE FOR ANY NEGATIVE REVIEW OF ANY KIND, PERFORMANCE REVIEWS, ANYTHING IN YOUR CAREER? NO, SIR. DO YOU AGREE THAT YOU'VE MADE A MISTAKE? YES, SIR. IF YOU COULD GO BACK AND CHANGE THIS, WHAT WOULD YOU TRY TO DO BETTER? UM, OBVIOUSLY STAY ON TOP OF ANY CERTIFICATIONS AND ALL CERTIFICATIONS. I MEAN, DRIVER'S LICENSE IS CLEARLY IMPORTANT, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF OTHERS TO MAINTAIN. AND THESE, THESE ARE THINGS THAT I SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT TO THE TOP OF THE PRIORITY LIST AND KEPT THERE. UM, IT'S, UH, IT'S VERY EMBARRASSING. UM, I, I'M PROBABLY MY, MY WORST CRITIC WITH THIS. AND, UH, IF I COULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN, I WOULD NOT HAVE THIS COME ABOUT AND WOULD ENSURE THAT EVERYONE ELSE IS ON THE SAME PAGE. SO IF, IF WE LOOK AT THE TIMELINE AGAIN, WHICH IS J 14, YOU WERE NOTIFIED ON MAY 28TH BY CHIEF DIVISION, CHIEF SHEFFIELD, UH, ABOUT A MONTH AND 13 DAYS LATER OR SO ISH. UM, YOU WERE NOTIFIED ON JUNE 25TH OR HE SENT YOU A TEXT. WERE YOU ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF IT? YES, SIR. IN THAT TIMEFRAME, YOU WERE STILL UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT YOUR LICENSE WAS EITHER IN THE MAIL OR IN PROCESS WITH DPS OR WHATEVER'S GOING ON WITH THE STATE OF TEXAS? CORRECT. ON JUNE 9TH, UH, CHIEF SHEFFIELD TEXT YOU AGAIN AND SAID, HEY, JUST CHECKING IN. DID YOU GET YOUR LICENSE RENEWED? UH, IF YOU'LL SEE THAT YOU HAD A KELLY DAY AND A SICK DAY, I'M ASSUMING THAT YOU WERE SICK DURING THAT TIMEFRAME? YES, SIR. WHICH IS WHY YOU NOT, DID NOT GET A RES OR YOU DID NOT RESPOND BACK TO HIM UNTIL JULY 15TH? YES, SIR. AND JULY 15TH, YOU RESPONDED TO HIS TEXTS, IT SHOWS HERE FROM THE JULY 9TH TEXT, YOU SAID, I'M GOING TO GET IT DONE TODAY. YOU WENT TO THE DPS OFFICE ON TECH ON DECKER TO RENEW, AND WERE TOLD YOU NEEDED AN APPOINTMENT? YES, SIR. SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT JUNE 5TH OR JULY 15TH WOULD'VE BEEN THE FIRST DAY THAT YOU OFFICIALLY KNOW, KNEW THAT YOU WOULD NEED AN APPOINTMENT? YES, SIR. AND YOU SCHEDULED THAT APPOINTMENT ON JULY 15TH, CHEF EL CHECKED IN WITH YOU LATER AND YOU REAFFIRMED THAT IT WAS ON AUGUST 5TH? YES, SIR. OKAY. DID YOU GET YOUR LICENSE RENEWED ON AUGUST 5TH? YES, SIR. THANK YOU. THAT'S ALL I HAVE. UH, UH, SHORT REDIRECT PLEASE. WOULD YOU GO AHEAD YOUR QUESTION? MM-HMM . YEAH, GO AHEAD. UM, YOU SAID ON THE 15TH, A MINUTE AGO THAT YOU, I THOUGHT YOU TESTIFIED EARLIER THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU KNEW ABOUT THE, UH, AUGUST 5TH APPOINTMENT WAS ON JULY 15TH, AND THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU WENT TO DPS AND YOU GOT THE APPOINTMENT? YES, SIR. ALRIGHT. CAN I TURN YOUR ATTENTION TO THE COMMENT ON JUNE THE 26TH? DO YOU SEE THAT [01:15:07] JULY? SORRY, YOUR RESPONSE TO YES, SIR. SHERIFF FIELD'S TEXT WAS, UM, THE LETTER N THE LETTER N. ALL RIGHT. LET ME BACK UP. ON JUNE THE 25TH, SHEFFIELD SENT A TEXT TO HANAUER ASKING, DID YOU RENEW YOUR LICENSE ALREADY OR HAS THAT COME UP YET? AND YOU RESPONDED IN, I ASSUME YOU'RE SAYING NO? YES, SIR. OKAY. UM, OKAY, SIR, I STILL NEED TO, SO AT THIS POINT, YOU KNOW THAT WHAT YOU HAD DONE WAS NOT A RENEWAL, CORRECT? BECAUSE YOU STILL NEEDED TO DO THAT. STILL, STILL NEEDING TO HAVE MY A RENEWED LICENSE? YES, SIR. THAT ONE HADN'T CAME IN THE MAIL OR NOTHING HAS, HAS CHANGED. HMM. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. OKAY. SO YOU ARE YEAH, I, WE, I DON'T, UM, I WOULD LIKE TO, UM, I, I, UM, PASS, I MEAN I PASSED THIS WITNESS OR, UM, I RELEASED THIS WITNESS, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP HIM AROUND SUBJECT TO RECALL. OKAY. OKAY. DO YOU HAVE ANY OTHER WITNESSES, MR. HAAS? YES, I DO. I CALL BATTALION CHIEF JOHN SHEFFIELD. I REST, THAT'S WHAT I COULDN'T GET OUT. . I DON'T WANT A BREAST. UH, STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE. JOHN SHEFFIELD. MR. FIFTH, COULD YOU SPEAK INTO THE MICROPHONE? OH, SORRY. JOHN SHEFFIELD. HOW ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED? YES, I'M CURRENTLY A DIVISION CHIEF OVER THE TRAINING DEPARTMENT FOR BAYTOWN FIRE DEPARTMENT. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A, A FIREMAN? SINCE APRIL 30TH, 2007. SO 18 YEARS. AND THEN HOW LONG HAVE YOU WORKED FOR BAYTOWN? SINCE FOR 18 YEARS NOW. TELL ME HOW YOU COME TO BE THE ONE TO REACH OUT TO. STEF AND I ABOUT HIS LICENSE BEING, UM, ABOUT TO EXPIRE AND THEN AFTER IT HAD EXPIRED. AS DIVISION CHIEF OF TRAINING, PART OF MY RESPONSIBILITY IS TO MONITOR AND REMIND PERSONNEL OF UPCOMING DRIVER'S LICENSES, EXPIRATION DATES. THESE REMINDERS ARE PROVIDED TO HELP ENSURE EVERYONE REMAINS COMPLIANT WITH THE CERTIFICATIONS REQUIRED FOR THEIR ASSIGNMENTS. ULTIMATELY, HOWEVER, IT REMAINS THE INDIVIDUAL MEMBER'S RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP THEIR DRIVER'S LICENSE VALID, TAKE TIMELY ACTION TO RENEW IT. SO I, AS A COURTESY IN THE TRAINING CHIEF'S OFFICE, I CAN SEE WHEN THEY'RE COMING UP FOR EXPIRATION AND I NOTIFY THE PERSONNEL SO THAT THEY CAN GET THEIR THINGS DONE IN A TIMELY MANNER. SO YOU DO THIS FOR ALL FIREFIGHTERS? THAT'S CORRECT. AND IT'S JUST PART, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER ONE OF THEIR CERTIFICATIONS THAT'S BEING MONITORED? THAT'S CORRECT. NOW, ARE YOU, UM, YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE THE, UH, DIVISION CHIEF FOR THE TRAINING DIVISION? YES, SIR. UH, DO YOU WORK IN THE OPERATIONS DIVISION? JUST THE TRAINING DIVISION. ALRIGHT. AND TELL THE, DESCRIBE FOR THE COMMISSION WHAT THAT MEANS. SO AS THE DIVISION CHIEF OF TRAINING, I, I'M OVER THE TRAINING DEPARTMENT. I SCHEDULE TRAINING AND MAINTAIN CERTIFICATIONS, UH, MAKE SURE THAT THE PERSONNEL RENEW THEIR CERTIFICATIONS. AND I'M BASICALLY THE, UH, THE RECORD KEEPER FOR THE CERTIFICATIONS FOR THE FIRE DEPARTMENT. ALRIGHT. SO YOU TEXTED, YOU TEXTED STEFAN HOUR BACK, WELL FIRST YOU SENT HIM AN EMAIL ON MAY THE 12TH, RIGHT? THAT'S CORRECT. AND YOU WERE REMINDED HIM THAT HIS LICENSE WAS ABOUT TO EXPIRE AND HE NEEDED TO [01:20:01] FIX THAT? YES, THAT'S CORRECT. AND THEN THE LICENSE EXPIRED ON, ON, UH, MAY THE 24TH. AND THEN WHAT MADE YOU REACH OUT TO HIM AGAIN ON MAY THE 28TH? UH, I REACHED OUT TO, I SAW THAT HIS LICENSE STILL HAD NOT BEEN RENEWED. AND YOU, UH, TEXTED HIM, NO, YOU CALLED HIM AND, UH, DISCUSSED THE ACTION HE HAD TAKEN UP TO THAT POINT TO GET HIS LICENSE RENEWED, CORRECT? THAT'S CORRECT. AND DID STEF AND I ARE PROVIDE YOU WITH A, THE SCREENSHOT THAT WE TALKED ABOUT IN EXHIBIT JJ NINE? I THINK J YEAH, J NINE. DO YOU HAVE THOSE EXHIBITS LIST? I DO NOT HAVE EXHIBITS. THANK YOU. YOU SAID IT'S J NINE? CORRECT. OKAY, I HAVE IT. IS THAT THE WEBSITE PICTURE THAT HE TOOK AND SENT TO YOU ON MAY THE 28TH? YES. AND WHAT CONVERSATIONS DID YOU HAVE WITH, UM, ENGINEER STEFAN HOUR, UH, CONCERNING THIS, UH, SCREENSHOT? SO KNOWING THAT THERE WAS NO, UH, RENEWAL DATE, UM, I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION WITH OUR CONVERSATION THAT HE WAS GONNA BE MAKING AN APPOINTMENT TO GET HIS LICENSE RENEWED OUTTA OFFICE. DID Y'ALL DISCUSS WHAT EL ELIGIBLE MEANS OR WHETHER OR NOT THIS PAPER WAS PROOF THAT HE HAD HIS LICENSE RENEWED? UM, THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION ABOUT IT, HOWEVER, TO ME, THERE WAS NO RENEWAL DATE FOR THE LICENSE TO UPDATE IN OUR SYSTEM. SO I KNEW THAT THAT WASN'T GONNA WORK. DID YOU THINK HE HAD RENEWED HIS LICENSE AFTER SEEING THIS PAGE, THIS WEB SHOT? I DID NOT. DID YOU TELL ENGINEER STEFAN HOUR THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS MEANS YOUR LICENSE WAS RENEWED ON MAY THE 28TH? UH, I DON'T RECALL THE EVENTS OF THAT PARTICULAR CONVERSATION BECAUSE I, I CAN'T SPEAK TO THAT. ALRIGHT. AT ANY POINT DID UH, STEPH AND I INITIATE ANY OF THESE CONVERSATIONS OR EMAIL CHAINS? UM, NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE. UH, IT WAS ALL ME REACHING OUT. DID YOU EVER, DURING THIS TIME, DID YOU EVER TELL THE OPERATIONS DIVISION? I DID TELL THE OPERATIONS THAT WAS ON, I UM, DID YOU FIND THAT FOR YOU REAL QUICK? THAT WAS ON JULY 29TH WHEN I NOTIFIED OPERATIONS. WHY DID YOU NOT NOTIFY OPERATIONS UNTIL JULY 29TH? WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, UM, I HAD JUST PROMOTED TO THE TRAINING DIVISION IN MARCH 10TH, 2025 AND I WAS UNAWARE OF THE GRAVITY OF THE SITUATION UNTIL, UH, I BROUGHT IT UP TO OUR OPERATIONS CHIEF ON THE 29TH. AND THEN I TOOK IMMEDIATE ACTION AFTER THAT. AND ON 29TH, UM, STEP AND I ENGINEER STEP AND I WAS REMOVED FROM DUTY OR PUT ON ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DUTY. I DIDN'T SAY THAT RIGHT? YES, THAT'S CORRECT. UH, ARE YOU ENGINEER STOWERS? LEMME GET THE WORDS CORRECT. ARE YOU, HI, ARE YOU HIS SUPERVISOR? NOT HIS DIRECT SUPERVISOR, UH, ENGINEER. STEFAN AUER KNOWS THAT HE [01:25:01] WOULD NOT CALL ME TO CALL IN SICK OR CALL ME FOR AN ISSUE AT THE STATION. HE WOULD FOLLOW HIS CHAIN OF COMMAND OF HIS CAPTAIN AND HIS BATTALION CHIEF. AND THE CHAIN OF COMMAND IS PROVIDED TO ENGINEER STEPAN AUER AS TO WHO IS IN HIS CHAIN OF COMMAND? THAT IS CORRECT. AND YOU'RE NOT IN HIS CHAIN OF COMMAND? NOT DIRECTLY. ANYTHING ELSE? I PASS THE WITNESS. OKAY. SO IF I'M CORRECT, YOU SENT, IT SHOWS HERE THAT YOU SENT HIM AN INITIAL EMAIL ON MAY 12TH, CORRECT? THAT'S CORRECT. OKAY. AND HE OR YOU CALLED HIM ON MAY 28TH TO LET HIM KNOW HIS LICENSE WAS, WAS EXPIRED OR WAS EXPIRING? IT WAS ALREADY EXPIRED, I BELIEVE. SO IN THAT TIMEFRAME, ON MAY 28TH, HE SENT YOU THE, THE SCREENSHOT WHERE HE FELT THAT HE WAS ELIGIBLE AND UNDER HIS BELIEF THAT HE THOUGHT HE WAS, THAT A NEW LICENSE WOULD BE SHOWING UP? THAT'S CORRECT. BUT UH, AS I SAID BEFORE, I'M UNAWARE I DON'T RECALL THE, UH, CONVERSATION OF THAT PHONE CALL. SO I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE NO, I'M SAYING HE SENT YOU A SCREENSHOT. HE SEND ME A SCREENSHOT SAYING THAT HE WAS WORKING ON IT. NO. OKAY. SO AS COUNSEL STATED, WHY DID YOU WAIT UNTIL SIX DAYS BEFORE HIS APPOINTMENT TO SAY SOMETHING AGAIN? AGAIN, I WAS NEW IN MY POSITION AND I WAS NOT AWARE OF THE GRAVITY OF THE SITUATION UNTIL THEN. BUT LIKE I SAID, WHENEVER I FOUND OUT, I ACTED ON THE SITUATION AND NOTIFIED THE PROPER PERSONNEL. SO YOU SAY YOU, YOU DEAL WITH ALL CERTIFICATIONS WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT? THAT'S CORRECT. WHAT IF SOMEBODY'S PARAMEDIC CERTIFICATION WAS REQUIRING WHAT WAS EXPIRING? I'LL REACH OUT FOR THEM TO RENEW IT. WOULD YOU REACH OUT IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THEIR EXPIRATION DATE? WOULD YOU NOTIFY ADMINISTRATION IF A PARAMEDIC, A PARAMEDIC WITHIN THE CITY'S PARAMEDIC LICENSE HAS EXPIRED IMMEDIATELY? THAT THAT IS CORRECT. THE QUESTION IS, AGAIN, KNOWING THAT ALL OF OUR CERTIFICATIONS, ALL THE THINGS THAT WE MEET, ALL THE STUFF THAT'S PUT INTO ESO, THERE WAS A VERY, VERY BIG TIME LAPSE WERE YOU WERE WORKING WITH HIM TO TRY TO GET THIS DONE. THAT'S CORRECT. IN ANY OF THAT TIME, DID HE EVER SEEM LIKE HE WAS BEING DECEPTIVE, THAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO ANYTHING DECEPTIVE? HE NEVER SEEMED DECEPTIVE. OKAY. THANK YOU. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. I NOTHING FURTHER, UH, FROM THIS WITNESS. I'VE GOT I THINK ONE MORE WITNESS RIGHT NOW, UM, FOR DIRECT, BUT I, I DO NEED TO VISIT THE LITTLE BOYS' ROOM. , CAN WE HAVE A BREAK? I THINK IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA. LET'S TAKE A BREAK OF FIVE MINUTES. OKAY. CALL RECESS. CALL RECESS. YEAH, IT IS, UH, 2 29 RIGHT NOW. SO RECESS, HOW LONG ARE YOU RECESS NUMBER? FIVE MINUTES UNTIL, NO, LET'S GO TILL, UM, 2 35. UH, 2 38. AND WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE. THANK YOU. CHAIR, CHAIRMAN, CHAIRPERSON. UM, THE, THE CITY CALLS CHIEF KENNETH DOBSON. ALL RIGHT. CHECK THE MIC, MAKE SURE IT'S GOOD. STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, PLEASE. KENNETH DOBSON. AND HOW ARE YOU CURRENTLY EMPLOYED? I AM THE FIRE CHIEF HERE IN BAYTOWN. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE FIRE? IN FIRE INDUSTRY, I GUESS. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A FIREMAN? UH, I THINK OVER THREE, FIVE YEARS. ALRIGHT. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A CHIEF? UH, ABOUT 16 YEARS. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH BAYTOWN? EIGHT YEARS. DID YOU HAVE AN OCCASION TO MAKE A DISCIPLINARY DETERMINATION CONCERNING BLAKE STEFANO? YES, I DID. AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HERE TODAY, CORRECT? CORRECT. WHAT, UM, WHAT ALL EVIDENCE DID YOU HAVE? I MEAN, WHAT, WHAT, GIMME A, A SHORT SYNOPSIS OF BASICALLY WHAT YOU DID. UM, BEFORE [01:30:01] DECIDING THE DETERMINATION IN THIS CASE. I LOOKED AT THE, UM, THE, UM, EVIDENCE THAT WAS PRESENTED AND THEN AFTER THE, UM, PROBABLE CAUSE DISCUSSION, ENGINEER STEFANO HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE ANOTHER DOCUMENT STATEMENT, WHICH I ALSO USED IN MY DETERMINATION OF THE DISCIPLINE FOR THAT INCIDENT. SO YOU USED BOTH OF, UH, ENGINEER STEFANO'S STATEMENTS PLUS UH, THE TEXT MESSAGES AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT'S BEEN ADMITTED IN THIS CASE, CORRECT? IN SHEFFIELD'S STATEMENTS? YES. DO YOU DISAGREE WITH ANY TESTIMONY THAT WAS GIVEN HERE TODAY? I THINK THAT SOME OF THE TESTIMONY WAS CON A LITTLE BIT CONFLICTING WITH SOME OF THE EVIDENCE. AND WHAT, WHAT DO YOU THINK CONFLICTS WITH THE EVIDENCE? DO YOU NEED THOSE, ARE THOSE EXHIBITS STILL UP THERE? YEAH. IF I CAN GO TO THE EXHIBITS. DO YOU NEED A LIST OF THE EXHIBITS? UM, I JUST NEED TO FIND THE TIMELINES AND TIMELINE IS 14 YEARS. IT'LL TAKE ME A MINUTE. THEY'RE NOT TAB ARE YOU THE CREATOR OF THE TIMELINE? YES, I AM. WHILE YOU LOOK, LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER QUESTION WHILE YOU LOOK. OKAY. UM, WELL GO AHEAD. YEAH, KEEP LOOKING OVER. UH, THERE WERE STATEMENTS AND, UM, STUFF AND I, AND STEPH AND I WERE STATEMENTS THAT BOTH OF STATEMENTS, THERE WAS THINGS ABOUT DELAYS, UM, FROM THE 28TH DISCUSSION WHERE HE SAID HE WENT TO THE WEBSITE, THOUGHT HIS LICENSE HAD BEEN RENEWED, AND IT SEEMS THAT SHEFFIELD SAYS THERE WERE THE DISCUSSION THAT HE UNDERSTOOD IT WASN'T RENEWED, HE NEEDED AN APPOINTMENT. AND THEN LATER ON IN THE TEXT FROM SHEFFIELD ON JUNE 25TH, THE TEXT SAYS FROM SHEFFIELD, DID YOU RENEW YOUR LICENSE ALREADY OR HAS THAT COME UP YET? AND THAT SEEMED TO INDICATE TO ME THAT SHEFFIELD HAD HAD A DISCUSSION ABOUT THERE BEING AN APPOINTMENT, WHICH GOES AGAINST WHAT STEFAN IRA WAS SAYING ABOUT THINKING ALL ALONG THAT HIS LICENSE HAD BEEN RENEWED. AND THEN, UM, HIS ANSWER IS NO. OKAY, SIR, I STILL NEED TO, AND IF HE, THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO EXPLAIN WHY HE THINKS HIS LICENSE, HE DIDN'T SAY THERE, UM, I THINK MY LICENSE IS RENEWED. I'M WAITING FOR IT IN THE MAIL, WHICH IS WHAT HE SEEMED TO INDICATE. HE THOUGHT ALL ALONG IT WAS HE WAS WAITING FOR IT IN THE MAIL. BUT HE DIDN'T SAY THAT. AND SO DID THEY, THEY JUST CONFLICT WITH WHAT HE HAD BEEN SAYING IN THE STATEMENTS. ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN THINK OF AS YOU SAID HERE, UH, TODAY? UH, SPECIFIC TO THE EVIDENCE? UH, YES. IS THERE ANYTHING YOU, UH, THINK THAT, UH, THAT YOU DISAGREE ON THE EVIDENCE THAT HAS BEEN, UH, SUBMITTED INTO THE, FOR THE COMMISSION TO DECIDE THIS CASE? NO, I THINK THE, THE EVIDENCE IS, IS PRETTY CLEAR. WHY? WELL, WHAT WHAT DID YOU DISCIPLINE ENGINEER STEFAN HOUR FOR? UH, SO ENGINEER STEFAN AUER, UH, ALLOWED HIS LICENSE TO EXPIRE, AND ALL OF US ARE REQUIRED TO MAINTAIN OUR LICENSES AND IT IS OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY TO KEEP IT, KEEP OUR LICENSES ACTIVE. AND THEN ENGINEER STEFAN ER WAS DRIVING CITY VEHICLES WITH AN EXPIRED LICENSE MULTIPLE TIMES, AT LEAST A DOZEN TIMES. AND ALL OF US KNOW THAT WE CAN'T DO THAT BY LAW. NO ONE NEEDS, MY OPINION WAS NO ONE NEEDS TO TELL HIM HE CAN'T DO THAT. HE KNOWS HE CAN'T DO THAT. AND IF I SHOW UP TO WORK AND I HAVE TO DRIVE A VEHICLE AND MY LICENSE IS EXPIRED, I'M GONNA TELL SOMEONE I CAN'T DRIVE THAT VEHICLE. MY LICENSE IS EXPIRED. SO THE, LET ME SEE IF, SO IF WE'RE LOOKING AT EXHIBIT TWO, THE POLICY 3 23, SECTION 0.7, YOU HAVE IT? YES. SORRY. [01:35:03] THE MAIN REASON OR THE REASON THAT STEPH AND I WAS DISCIPLINE WAS NOT FOR NOT RENEWING HIS LICENSE AND THEN DRIVING CITY TRUCKS? CORRECT. DID YOU DISCIPLINE HIM FOR NOT REPORTING IT TO HIS, UM, CHAIN OF COMMAND? THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS DISCUSSED EARLIER, BUT IT WAS NOT THE, UM, REASON FOR THE DISCIPLINE. THE, THE, THE PRIMARY REASON FOR THE DISCIPLINE WAS EXPIRED LICENSE, WHICH ALREADY IS A VIOLATION, AND THEN CONTINUING TO COME TO WORK AND DRIVE WITH AN EXPIRED LICENSE WITH, SO IF STEPH AND I TESTIFIED THAT THE ONLY THING HE DISAGREES WITH IN THIS OPINION IS THE 12 HOURS IS BEING REASONABLE, THEN HE'S NOT CONTESTING WHETHER OR NOT, YOU KNOW, HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISCIPLINED UNDER THIS ACT, CORRECT? CORRECT. OR UNDER THIS POLICY. CORRECT. BECAUSE HE, HE'S ADMITTED THAT EVERYTHING ELSE IN THIS DETERMINATION IS CORRECT. CORRECT. NOW LET'S GET TO THE 12 HOURS. WHY DID YOU GIVE STEFAN AUER 12 HOURS? THE, THE VIOLATION THAT STEFAN AUER HAD FIRST ORIGINALLY WAS HIS LICENSE BEING EXPIRED, NOT MAINTAINING A LICENSE AND COMING TO WORK WITH THE EXPIRED LICENSE. UM, BUT THE CONTINUED COMING BACK TO WORK AND WORKING AND DRIVING A FIRE APPARATUS WITH AN EXPIRED LICENSE. UM, ONE IS AGAINST THE LAW, IT'S AGAINST CITY POLICY, IT'S AGAINST FIRE DEPARTMENT POLICY. UM, AND IT'S ALSO A LIABILITY TO THE CITY. WOULD YOU TURN YOUR ATTENTION TO, I THINK IT'S J 13, IT'S THE 12 HOUR AND THE OTHER, UH, NO, IT'S NOT 13. 15. 15. EXHIBIT 15. YES. ALL RIGHT. CAN YOU DESCRIBE, SO FIRST, DID YOU CREATE THIS LIST? YES, I DID. AND WHAT DOES THIS LIST REPRESENT? THESE WERE THE, UM, THE LAST 12 HOUR DISCIPLINES THAT WERE HANDED DOWN ON THE LAST THREE YEARS. IS THIS SOMETHING THAT ENGINEER STAFF AND I AND HIS REPRESENTATIVE REQUESTED? YES, IT IS. ALRIGHT. AND THIS IS ALL THE OTHER FIREFIGHTERS THAT HAVE RECEIVED 12 HOURS OF DISCIPLINE IN THE LAST THREE YEARS? CORRECT. CAN YOU DESCRIBE, BRIEFLY, JUST GIVE A A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE, UH, FACTS OF THOSE FOUR OTHER 12 HOUR DISCIPLINES? UM, THE FIRST ONE HAS TO DO WITH, UM, AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS SPREADING RUMORS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE IN THE DEPARTMENT, BOTH INTERNALLY AND EXTERNALLY, THAT, UM, CAUSED A LOT OF ISSUES AND CAUSED A LOT OF COMPLAINTS AND, YOU KNOW, COULD HAVE LED TO MORE SERIOUS COMPLAINTS AND VIOLATIONS WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT. SO WE ADDRESSED THAT ONE. THE NEXT TWO WE'RE BACKING WITHOUT A SPOTTER. AND BOTH OF THOSE, UM, I KNOW THERE'S ALWAYS QUESTIONS ABOUT DAMAGE. THE, THE BACKING WITHOUT A SPOTTER'S. UH, I DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS. I THINK ONE BUMPED A POLE AND ONE MIGHT'VE BACKED INTO A DOOR. I DON'T EVEN KNOW FOR SURE. I KNOW ONE, I KNOW ONE WAS RUNNING A CALL AND BACKED UP WITHOUT A SPOTTER AND, AND, AND BUMPED A POLE. AND THE OTHER ONE I DON'T REMEMBER. UM, AND THEN THE LAST ONE WAS, UM, THE INDIVIDUAL MADE A RIGHT TURN FROM THE LEFT LANE AND CUT A CAR OFF AND THE CAR HIT HIM KNOWING, WELL, LEMME SAY THIS ONE, ONE, EVERY CASE IS DIFFERENT, CORRECT? CORRECT. EVERY TIME YOU'RE LOOKING AT A CASE, YOU HAVE TO MAKE A DETERMINATION AS TO WHAT IS THE, UH, JUST PUNISHMENT. CORRECT. UM, WHY DID YOU DECIDE 12 HOURS WAS JUST IN THIS CASE? BECAUSE THE, OF THE SEVERITY OF THE VIOLATION, UM, VIOLATION OF THE LAW, WHICH WAS, WAS VERY EVIDENT. AND WE [01:40:01] HAVE IN THE PAST EMPHASIZED THAT IF YOU VIOLATE A LAW, THERE'S GONNA BE A MINIMUM, YOU KNOW, PENALTY. WE TALKED ABOUT GETTING AN ACCIDENT OR SOMETHING, AND THEN YOU'RE AT FAULT AND VIOLATE A TRAFFIC LAW, THEN IT'S AUTOMATICALLY GONNA BE A SET LEVEL OF TIME OFF. AND SO I FELT LIKE THIS ONE, BECAUSE OF THE CONTINUED, UM, BEHAVIOR OF THE EMPLOYEE OF COMING TO WORK AND NOT GETTING THE LICENSE TAKEN CARE OF, UM, WAS, UM, REQUIRED THE PENALTY THAT WE HAD. UH, AND IF I COULD ADD ALSO THAT ONCE ADMINISTRATION FOUND OUT ABOUT THE VIOLATIONS, WE IMMEDIATELY TOOK HIM OFF OF, UM, OF OPERATIONS DUTY, TOOK HIM OFF A SHIFT. UM, THAT CAUSED US, THAT PUT US INTO OVERTIME. WE, WE, WE WERE GONNA PUT HIM ON ADMINISTRATIVE DUTY. WE, HE ASKED TO WORK VACATION AND TO TAKE VACATION TIME INSTEAD, INSTEAD OF SITTING AT THE OFFICE, WE ALLOW THAT BECAUSE EITHER WAY HE COULD NOT WORK ON A SHIFT THAT CAUSED US TO HAVE TO CALL IN OVERTIME ON THOSE DAYS. UM, AND SO THAT WAS COSTING THE CITY, YOU KNOW, 24 HOURS, I THINK, I THINK TWICE, 48 HOURS WORTH OF OVERTIME WHILE HE WAS OFF. AND YOUR DECISION TO GIVE 12 HOURS, DID, DID YOU EVER CONSIDER GIVING MORE OR LESS? UM, I, I WAS TRYING TO CONSIDER, I WAS CONSIDERING HOW MUCH TIME TO GIVE HIM. I, I, I THOUGHT ABOUT MORE. UM, THE, THE, THE LEAST AMOUNT OF TIME THAT WE GIVE SOMEONE OFF THAT IS A SUSPENSION IS 12 HOURS. AND I DECIDED THAT, UM, SINCE HE HAD NO OTHER OFFENSES IN THE, IN THE PAST, THAT, UM, THAT WOULD BE THE, THE, THE MINIMUM THAT, THAT HE COULD GET FOR THE VIOLATIONS HE HAD. AND, AND 12 HOURS IS THE MINIMUM DISCIPLINE THAT YOU CAN PROVIDE FOR YES. FOR THAT DISCIPLINE, YES. OTHER THAN THE WRITE-UPS AND THINGS LIKE THAT? YEP. THE, YOU KNOW, IT'S THE MINIMUM TIME OFF BECAUSE OF THE SCHEDULES, THE WAY THE FIREMEN WORK OR SOMETHING. CORRECT. THAT'S THE MINIMUM THAT WE WOULD GIVE OFF. WE DON'T DO A PARTIAL SMALLER HOURS THAT I KNOW OF NEVER DONE. BUT THEY COULD HAVE. YOU COULD HAVE GIVEN HIM A, A REP WRITTEN REPRIMAND. YES. YOU COULD HAVE SENT HIM FOR, I DON'T KNOW, SOME, THERE'S ANOTHER FORM OF DISCIPLINE BEFORE WRITTEN REPRIMAND. UH, WOULD JUST BE A VERBAL, UH, YEAH. VERBAL. YES. OR YOU COULD HAVE GIVEN HIM UP TO AN INDEFINITE SUSPENSION, CORRECT? CORRECT. ARE YOU ASKING THIS COMMISSION TO CHANGE YOUR, UH, YOUR DETERMINATION? NO, I'M NOT. ALRIGHT. SO YOU'RE ASKING THEM TO SUSTAIN THE, UH, DETERMINATION THAT YOU PROVIDED, CORRECT? YES. ANYTHING ELSE YOU'D LIKE, YOU, YOU'D LIKE FOR THE COMMISSION TO KNOW BEFORE DECIDING THIS CASE? I THINK WE COVERED EVERYTHING. YEAH. PASS THE WITNESS TWO DOBSON. UH, YOU REFERRED EARLIER TO THE JUNE 25TH AND JUNE 26TH TEXTS, UH, THAT WERE SENT BETWEEN SHEFFIELD AND BLAKE. YES. UM, AND I KNOW YOU SAID THERE WAS SOME POSSIBLE MISUNDERSTANDINGS OR WHATEVER BETWEEN THAT INSIDE THAT JUNE 26TH TEXT. DOES IT SAY THAT HE STILL NEEDS TO SCHEDULE HIS APPOINTMENT? NO, IT JUST SAYS NO. OKAY. SIR. I STILL NEED TO OKAY. WE WERE, WERE TALKING, OR YOU WERE TALKING JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO ABOUT THE, UH, 12 HOUR INCIDENCES HAVE HAPPENED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS. YES. WE REQUESTED FOR THREE, OBVIOUSLY WE'LL BE BACK TIL TWO. UH, 2024. UM, AS YOU STATED, THERE ARE THREE OF THOSE DID CAUSE PROPERTY DAMAGE TO CITY PROPERTY, CORRECT? YES. AND ONE OF THOSE WAS IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW AND CAUSED CITY PROPERTY DAMAGE? CORRECT. OKAY. CAN YOU, IN A, A PRETTY SHORT SYNOPSIS, CAN YOU DEFINE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ADMINISTRATION, ADMINISTRATION AND OPERATIONS? ADMINISTRATION AND OPERATIONS, FIRE ADMINISTRATION, FIRE OPERATIONS. FIRE OPERATIONS ARE, ARE OUR SHIFT PERSONNEL IS THE WAY I WOULD PROBABLY BEST DESCRIBE IT. OUR THREE BATTALIONS. AND YOU HAVE ONE ASSISTANT CHIEF IN THE OFFICE OVER, UH, THE OPERATIONS DIVISION, CORRECT? CORRECT, CORRECT. AT ANY POINT IN TIME, ARE ANY OF YOUR ADMINISTRATIVE CHIEFS ALLOWED TO RESPOND TO A FIRE OR A LARGE INCIDENT OF ANY KIND? YES, THEY ARE. AT THAT POINT IN TIME, CAN THEY BE USED WITHIN THE OPERATIONAL [01:45:01] DIVISION TO DO WHATEVER'S NEEDED ON SCENE? YES, THEY CAN. SO INSIDE THAT REALM, IS THERE A POSSIBILITY THAT BLAKE COULD MISCONSTRUE THAT JOHN SHEFFIELD, CHIEF DIVISION, CHIEF SHEFFIELD OVER TRAINING WHO COULD RESPOND TO AN INCIDENT, BE A SUPERVISOR? I THINK THAT, THAT SOMEONE COULD MISCONSTRUE THROUGH THAT. ANYTHING ELSE? YES. SO IF, IF THEY WERE ON A MAJOR INCIDENT AND THE PRESCRIBED BATTALION CHIEF, WHETHER IT BE A B OR C SHIFT SAID, I NEED YOU TO BE CHARLIE SECTOR OR CHARLIE DIVISION, HOWEVER YOU WOULD LIKE TO PUT IT, AND JOHN SCH WHO GAVE HIM A LAW ORDER AT THAT FIRE SCENE, HE IS A SUPERVISOR AT THAT POINT IN TIME AT A FIRE SCENE, THEN HE WOULD BE CONSIDERED A SUPERVISOR IF HE AT THE FIRE SCENE. OKAY. WHENEVER INSIDE THE TEXT, OR I MEAN THE, SORRY, IN THE TEXT, SORRY. THE TIMELINE ON JULY 29TH, UH, I BELIEVE SHEFFIELD DISCLOSED TO CHIEF GASKIN, IF I'M CORRECT, IF THAT'S THE WAY THAT PROB PROBABLY WENT? I BELIEVE SO. UH, THAT, THAT HE WAS, THAT HE DID NOT HAVE A VALID DRIVER'S LICENSE AT THAT POINT IN TIME. I'M ASSUMING CHIEF GASKIN WOULD BE THE ONE THAT WOULD, THAT SAID YOU NEED TO COME OFF SHIFT, CORRECT? CORRECT. AND ON AUGUST 2ND AND THIRD, HE WAS ALLOWED TO TAKE VACATION, UH, INSTEAD OF COMING INTO DUTY. IS THAT BECAUSE HE WAS TOLD NOT TO DRIVE INTO WORK? UM, I DIDN'T HAVE THE CONVERSATION WITH HIM, BUT I, I THINK THAT WE HAVE THE PERSON HERE THAT DID, THAT'S A WITNESS, SO, OKAY. SO EITHER WAY HE, IF IF WHATEVER, HOWEVER IT HAPPENED, HE DID NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO GET TO WORK. SO HE ASKED IF HE COULD TAKE A VACATION DAY AND USE 48 HOURS OF HIS EARN TIME INSTEAD OF HAVING TO COME IN AND FURTHER BREAK THE LAW. POSSIBLY. HE ASKED IF HE COULD, UM, TAKE VACATION RATHER THAN COME IN. OKAY. AND, UH, WE DID THAT 'CAUSE WE WERE TRYING TO WORK WITH HIM. YES, I AGREE. I AGREE. IS IT MANDATORY TO RECEIVE EMAILS ON YOUR OFF DAYS? NO. CAN YOU POSSIBLY DESCRIBE, WE TALKED ABOUT, UM, WRITTEN REPRIMANDS OR DISCIPLINARY ACTION, UH, AND POLICY 3 23, WHICH IS EXHIBIT J 16. I'M SORRY, I MAY BE LOSING MY MIND. , GIMME ONE SECOND. YEAH, I'M SORRY. THAT'S THE CITY SERVICE POLICY MANUAL. IF YOU, IF YOU'LL LOOK AT THAT, IT'S, UH, J 16 AND IT'S GONNA BE PAGE 49, I BELIEVE. UH, IT'S UNDER CHAPTER 12 OF DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS. SEE THE NUMBER AGAIN? UH, IT'S THE J 12 EXHIBIT. PAGE 49. MM-HMM . J 16. JJ 16 IS EXHIBIT PAGE 49 OF THAT EXHIBIT? EXHIBIT 16. EXHIBIT 16. OKAY. OKAY. UNDER CHAPTER 12, DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS, IF YOU TURN YOUR ATTENTION TO 12.03 INSIDE THAT STATE, INSIDE THE, UH, THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, WHAT IS, CAN YOU READ THAT FIRST PARAGRAPH FOR ME? 1203. YES, SIR. CIVIL SERVICE EMPLOYEE MAY BE DISCIPLINED, SUSPENDED, OR INDEFINITELY SUSPENDED FROM EMPLOYMENT FOR ANY ACTS OR OMISSIONS INVOLVING ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING GROUNDS. SO UNDER THAT, THAT WE, WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO INDEFINITELY SUSPEND PEOPLE, TO SUSPEND PEOPLE OR TO DISCIPLINE PEOPLE, IF THAT'S, IF I'M READING IT CORRECT. OKAY. YES. WOULD YOU ASSUME THAT DISCIPLINE WOULD BE A VERBAL OR A WRITTEN REPRIMAND? UM, IT'S A PART OF THE PROCESS. OKAY. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS. I THINK THE, [01:50:01] I THINK THE WORDS MAY BE IMPORTANT HERE. UM, DISCIPLINE, IT, IT, YOU KNOW, IT'S A, UH, TIERED, IT'S A LABELED A, UM, A UM, STAIR STEP PROCESS THAT GETS MORE SEVERE AS IT GOES UP, CORRECT? CORRECT. AND YOU SAID IT'S A VERBAL THEN A WRITTEN THEN, UM, UH, 12 HOURS OFF UP TO, UM, I THINK IT'S 15 DAYS OFF IS THE MOST YOU CAN GIVE THEM. CORRECT. AND AT OVER THAT IT'S CONSIDERED AN INDEFINITE CORRECT SUSPENSION. SO THE SUSPENDED AND THE INDEFINITE SUSPENSION ARE ONE IN THE, WELL ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. SO THE SUSPENDED WOULD BE THE 12 HOURS TO 15 DAYS, AND THEN INDEFINITE SUSPENSION WOULD BE FIRED. AND THEN DISCIPLINED WOULD BE EITHER VERBAL, WRITTEN, OR THE PROCESS WE'RE DOING HERE. BUT NORMALLY FOR FILING PURPOSES AND FOR THE CLERK'S RECORD, IT DISCIPLINE MEANS SUSTAINED, UM, SUSTAINED ALLEGATIONS FOR, UM, ANYWHERE WHERE THERE'S TIME OFF OF WORK. A A DISCIPLINE UNDER THE, UM, CIVIL SERVICE RULES DOES NOT INCLUDE WRITTEN REPRIMAND OR, OR VERBAL WARNING. UM, ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT OR AM I ASKING OUTSIDE YOUR KNOWLEDGE? I, I, THAT THAT SOUNDS CORRECT, BUT YEAH, IT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A A AND A CORRECT. AND A G CORRECT. PART OF THE FILE. CORRECT. IF IT TO GET TO A, IT'S GOTTA BE A SUSTAINED DISCIPLINE TIME OFF OF WORK. CORRECT. SO AS WE USE IT IN, IN EMPLOYMENT, JUST TO TRY TO CLEAR IT UP AS WE USE IT, UH, JUST FOR EMPLOYMENT LAW, DISCIPLINE WOULD BE ANY OF THOSE THINGS. BUT FOR CIVIL SERVICE RULES, IT HAS TO BE DISCIPLINED AND SUSTAINED TO GET IN THEIR PERSONNEL FILE, CORRECT? CORRECT. AND DISCIPLINE IS TIME OFF FROM WORK. CORRECT. ANYTHING ELSE YOU, IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE YOU THOUGHT OF OR YOU'D LIKE TO PROVIDE THE COMMISSION NOW? UM, I I, I'D JUST LIKE TO ADD THAT, UM, THE SEVERITY OF THE VIOLATION, HA IT HAS IN THE PAST, SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE, SOMETIMES BEEN AT A SUSPENSION ON THE FIRST OFFENSE. DEPENDING ON WHAT THAT IS THAT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT'S UNUSUAL. SO DEPENDING ON THE VIOLATION, IT MAY, MAY REQUIRE DISCIPLINE BY ME THAT IT STARTS AT A SUSPENSION AND DOESN'T GO THROUGH A VERBAL OR A WRITTEN. AND THAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST. UH, LET ME ASK YOU, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE'S CAUSE THAT CAUSE EXISTS TO SUPPORT IMPOSING SOME FORM OF DISCIPLINARY ACTION AGAINST ENGINEER STEFANO? YES. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE DISCIPLINARY, THE DEGREE OF DISCIPLINARY ACTION IMPOSED BY THE DEPARTMENT WAS REASONABLE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES? YES, I DID. HAS THE HEARING PROCESS DEVELOPED EVIDENCE WHICH JUSTIFIED OR COMPELS MODIFICATION TO YOUR DISCIPLINARY ACTION? NO. IN YOUR OPINION? NO. UM, AND YOU'RE ASKING THAT YOUR DETERMINATION BE SUSTAINED OR, OR APPROVED OR UPHELD? YES. I PASS THE WITNESS. I JUST HAVE ONE QUICK THING I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT A LITTLE BIT. IF YOU COULD TURN YOUR ATTENTION TO J 12 EXHIBIT 12. YES, I'VE [01:55:01] GOT IT. OKAY. I'M SORRY. OKAY. COULD YOU READ UNDER THE SYNOPSIS OF EVENTS, COULD YOU READ THE. * This transcript was created by voice-to-text technology. The transcript has not been edited for errors or omissions, it is for reference only and is not the official minutes of the meeting.