Sep 04, 2025 CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION

UH, CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MEETING.

HELLO EVERYBODY.

[ CITY OF BAYTOWN NOTICE OF MEETING CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 2025, 2:00 P.M. COUNCIL CHAMBER, CITY HALL 2401 MARKET STREET, BAYTOWN, TEXAS 77520 AGENDA CALL TO ORDER AND ANNOUNCEMENT OF QUORUM ]

TODAY IS SEPTEMBER 4TH.

IT IS, UH, 2:01 PM UH, CALL THE, UH, MEETING TO ORDER.

AND WE HAVE EVERYBODY PRESENT THAT NEEDS TO BE PRESENT, CORRECT? UH, OKAY.

UM, THE READING, THIS FIRST ONE ITEM, WARNING ITEM ONE.

CITIZEN COMMENTS, UH, NOTICES HEREBY GIVEN THAT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TEXAS OPEN MEETINGS ACT, TEXAS GOVERNMENT CODE CHAPTER 5 51 PROHIBITS THE, PROHIBITS THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION FROM DISCUSSING, DELIBERATING OR CONSIDERING SUBJECTS FOR WHICH PUBLIC NOTICE HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN ON THE AGENDA.

ISSUES THAT CANNOT BE REFERRED TO THE, THE ISSUES THAT CANNOT BE REFERRED TO, TO THE ADMINISTRATION FOR ACTION MAY BE PLACED ON THE AGENDA OF A FUTURE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION SESSION.

AND CITIZEN COMMENTS, WE HAVE TO, NO ONE SIGNED UP.

MM-HMM .

GOING ON TO ITEM TWO,

[a. Consider approving the minutes for the Civil Service Commission meeting held on February 19, 2025.]

THE MINUTES.

UH, WE'RE GOING TO CONSIDER APPROVING THE MINUTES FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MEETING HELD ON FEBRUARY 19TH, 2025.

DO WE HAVE A MOTION? I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

WE ACCEPT THE, UH, MINUTES AS PRINTED FOR FEBRUARY 19TH.

AND ALL IN FAVOR? AYE.

AND THEN, UH, ITEM TWO B, CONSIDER APPROVING THE MINUTES FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION MEETING HELD ON FEBRUARY, NO, JANUARY 28TH WAS THE ONE BEFORE.

NONE OPPOSED.

SO THE MINUTES WILL BE APPROVED.

[b. Consider approving the minutes for the Civil Service Commission meeting held on January 28, 2025, with the following correction: The name Dennis G. Araujo to be changed to Donald Vallier who was the Commissioner in attendance. ]

UH, WE DID HAVE ONE CORRECTION.

THE NAME DENNIS G ARJO.

I CAN'T, I WANTED TO MAKE SURE I HAD THAT RIGHT.

IS TO BE CHANGED TO DONALD VALIER WHO WAS UNDER, WHO WAS THE COMMISSIONER IN ATTENDANCE.

SO, I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

WE ACCEPT THE, THE MINUTES FOR JANUARY 28TH.

AND WE CAN WANT TO THE NEXT ITEM, UM, CIVIL SOURCE COMMISSION TO HEARING.

I NOW CALL TO ORDER

[a. Review of procedures for Civil Service Appeal Hearing by Civil Service Director.]

THIS APPEAL HEARING FOR THE FIRE BATTALION DIVISION CHIEF, THE FIRE CAPTAIN, AND THE FIRE ENGINEER PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATIONS, WHICH WERE ADMINISTERED ON AUGUST 14TH AND AUGUST 15TH, 2025.

BEFORE WE START THE HEARING OF THE INDIVIDUAL APPEAL QUESTIONS, I'M GOING TO ASK THE CIVIL SERVICE DIRECTOR TO PROVIDE AN OVERVIEW OF THE APPEAL PROCEDURAL PROCESS.

WILL RESCORE THE TEST AND THEN WE'LL RETURN.

BEAR WITH ME.

'CAUSE THIS IS STRAIGHT FROM THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES, SO I'LL READ IT VERBATIM FROM THAT.

SO, PURSUANT TO THE CIVIL SERVICE RULES, I WANT TO REMIND THE COMMISSION AND THE APPELLANT THE FACTORS THAT DO NOT SUPPORT AN APPEAL.

THE FOLLOWING FACTORS WILL NOT SUPPORT AN APPEAL, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO EVIDENCE THAT REFERENCE MATERIALS OR SOURCES SUPPORT AN ANSWER WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN THE APPROVED ANSWER EVIDENCE THAT THERE EXISTS.

ANOTHER ANSWER, WHICH IS ACCURATE IN CERTAIN LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES, BUT IS NOT ACCURATE GENERALLY, OR EVIDENCE THAT THE REFERENCE PAGE NUMBER IS INCORRECTLY STATED.

A PAGE NUMBER IS GIVEN ONLY TO ASSIST IN LOCATING THE BASIS FOR AN APPROVED ANSWER IN REGARDS TO THE STRUCTURE AND FORMAT OF THE APPEAL HEARING.

FOR EACH APPEALED QUESTION ON THE AGENDA TODAY, THE APPELLANT WILL BE GIVEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT THEIR REASONS FOR THE APPEAL.

THE APPELLANT MAY DESIGNATE SOMEONE ELSE TO PRESENT THEIR COMMENTS IF THEY CHOOSE.

SO PURSUANT TO THIS BAYTOWN CIVIL SERVICE RULES, EACH APPELLANT WILL BE AFFORDED FOUR MINUTES TO SPEAK ON HIS OR HER APPEALED QUESTION.

IN THE CASE OF MULTIPLE APPELLANTS, WE JUST ASK THAT THE APPELLANTS PLEASE REFRAIN FROM GIVING REDUNDANT TESTIMONY THAT'S ALREADY BEEN SHARED AFTER THE APPELLANT HAS SPOKEN ON THE QUESTION, THE COMMISSION MAY ASK QUESTIONS OF EACH APPELLANT INDIVIDUALLY, THE CIVIL SERVICE DIRECTOR OR ANY OTHER NECESSARY PART PARTY FOR REFERENCE.

THEREAFTER, OTHERS WILL BE AFFORDED THOSE WHO SIGNED UP ON THE LIST TO SPEAK IF THEY CHOOSE TO, AND THEY'LL BE GIVEN THREE MINUTES TO CHOOSE TO.

AGAIN, THESE ARE NON APPELLANTS THAT HAVE SIGNED UP FOR THOSE PARTICULAR ITEMS. AND THEN AFTER THE APPELLANT HAS SPOKEN AND OTHERS HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK ON THE APPEAL, THE COMMISSION WILL ARRIVE AT THE DECISION BY MAKING A MOTION AND THEN VOTING ON IT.

THE COMMISSION WILL DECIDE ON ONE OF THE FOLLOWING.

FOR EACH APPEALED QUESTION, YOU HAVE FOUR OPTIONS TO CHOOSE FROM.

YOU CAN KEEP THE ANSWER THE SAME AS IT WAS ON THE ORIGINAL KEY.

YOU CAN CHOOSE TO CHANGE THE CORRECT ANSWER.

YOU CAN ALLOW MORE THAN ONE CORRECT ANSWER IF YOU CHOOSE SO, OR YOU CAN DELETE THE QUESTION FROM THE TEST COMPLETELY.

AND AFTER THE COMMISSION, YOU VOTE ON ALL THE APPEALED QUESTIONS.

THERE WILL BE A RECESS.

[00:05:01]

AND THE COMMISSION WILL ANNOUNCE THE FINAL GRADES FOR THE FINAL ELIGIBILITY LIST THAT WILL BE CERTIFIED BY, YEAH.

THREE B, UM, APPEAL QUESTION NUMBER 25.

SO ITEM THREE A, UM, DO YOU WANT, SINCE NO ONE IS SIGNED UP? YEAH, YOU CAN MOVE ON TO THREE.

[b. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #25 from the Fire Battalion Chief / Division Chief promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

[c. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #23 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

[d. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #24 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

NO ONE HAS SIGNED UP FOR THAT.

WE DID THAT, THAT WAS PART OF WHAT I JUST WROTE.

I DIDN'T HAVE TO SIGN UP.

THEY TOLD ME THEY SHOULD BE JEFF KELLY.

SHOULD BE JEFF KELLY.

UH, THIS QUESTION 25, UH, DIDN'T HAVE A CORRECT ANSWER CHOICE, UH, GIVEN, AND I THINK THE FAIREST RECOMMENDATION IS BY THE TEST RIDER JUST TO, UH, COUNT ALL ANSWERS CORRECT AND GIVE EVERYONE CREDIT FOR THE TEST QUESTIONS.

I THINK IT'S A FAIREST AND EASIEST THING TO DO.

OKAY? OKAY.

UM, AS A COMMISSION, Y'ALL MAY ASK QUESTIONS OF THE APPELLATE, MR. KELLY, OR Y'ALL CAN DELIBERATE AMONGST US.

SO I DON'T HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. KELLY, BUT THE, UH, UH, TEST AUTHOR IS, IS ADMITTING THAT THERE'S NOT A CORRECT ANSWER THERE.

SO WE'RE, UH, I'M LEANING TOWARDS ACCEPTING YOUR APPEAL BASED ON THAT.

I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT AS WELL.

AND MR. KELLY, YOUR RECOMMENDATION, RATHER THAN THROWING THE QUESTION OUT, YOU WANNA GIVE EVERYBODY CREDIT FOR THAT, CORRECT? THAT'S YOUR RECOMMENDATION? YES, CORRECT.

ANY DISCUSSION ABOUT IT? NO, I'M, I'M OKAY.

WITH IT, WITH ACCEPTING ALL, ACCEPTING ALL ANSWERS, I'LL, I'LL MAKE A MOTION THAT WE, UH, MR. BEFORE YOU MAKE A MOTION, I'M SORRY, MAKE SURE NOBODY ELSE HAS SPEAK UP OR SIGNED UP TO SPEAK ON THE ITEM BEYOND THE APPELLANT.

NO, THIS ONE.

MOTION 25 SIGNED UP.

QUESTION TWO B ON THE SIGN UP LIST THAT AGNES GAVE YOU.

THERE WE GO.

THREE LOTS OF PIECES OF PAPER HERE SHOULD BE NO.

JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE NOBODY ELSE WAS SIGNED UP.

NO, I WANT TO SIGN UP.

THEN I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

WE UPHOLD THE APPEAL AND ACCEPT ALL ANSWERS AS CORRECT FOR THAT QUESTION.

ALL IN FAVOR? AYE.

ALRIGHT, THEN WE'RE GOING TO ACCEPT ALL OF THOSE ANSWERS FOR CLARIFICATION.

A, B, C, AND D ARE BEING ACCEPTED.

THAT'S CORRECT.

ANSWER.

LOOK, WE'RE ACCEPTING ALL THE ANSWERS CORRECT.

WE'RE ACCEPTING ALL OF THEM.

ALL FOUR, THOSE ARE ALL THE ANSWERS.

A, B, C, AND D.

AND IT SECURE THE AREA, HOWEVER, IN THE VERY SAME CHAPTER DONE ALSO EMPHASIZES IMMEDIATE LIFE SAFETY ACTIONS.

ON PAGE 2 44, HE STATES FIRST RESPONDERS SHOULD REMOVE THE SURFACE VICTIMS TO SAFELY AND ADMINISTER FIRST AID.

HE FURTHER CLARIFIES ON THE SAME PAGE, SEVERAL STEPS OF A COLLAPSED RESCUE PLAN MAY BE CARRIED OUT SIMULTANEOUSLY.

IF SUFFICIENT RESOURCES ARE AVAILABLE IS NOT NECESSARY TO COMPLETE ONE STEP BEFORE STARTING THE NEXT.

THIS LANGUAGE DEMONSTRATES THAT WHILE SECURE THE AREA IS LISTED FIRST IN SEQUENCE, REMOVING SURFACE VICTIMS IS ALSO ONE OF THE VERY FIRST ACTIONS THAT A COLLAPSED RESCUE SCENE, IN FACT, DUN EXPLICITLY ALLOWS FOR THESE TESTS TO BE CARRIED OUT SIMULTANEOUSLY, NOT STRICTLY ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

UM, HOWEVER, AS WORDED SECURE, THE AREA FOR PAGE 2 38 AND REMOVE SUFFIX VICTIMS ARE BOTH JUSTIFIED CORRECT ANSWERS UNDER DUNN'S GUIDANCE.

FOR THESE REASONS, I BELIEVE MY ANSWERS SHOULD ALSO BE ACCEPTED AS CORRECT, WAS DIRECTLY REF REFLECT REFLEX DUNN'S TEXT, WHICH IS 2 38, 2 44.

SO I'M ASKING FOR ANSWERS B AND C, SECURE THE AREA AND, UH, RESCUE SURFACE VICTIMS TO BE CORRECT.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR, UH, BRINGING THOSE TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS.

ANY QUESTIONS OR DISCUSSION ON THAT ONE? YES.

GO BACK UP.

I'M SORRY.

[00:10:03]

PUTTING THEM TOGETHER.

YES, SIR.

PAGES, HOW DO YOU SEPARATE THE IMMEDIATELY FROM SIMULTANEOUSLY? SO INSTEAD OF IT HAPPENING TO BE FROM WHAT IT STATES IN THE BOOK, INSTEAD OF A ONE STEP, AS SOON AS THEY GET THERE, THEY HAVE TO SECURE THE AREA.

THEY CAN BE SIMULTANEOUS, THEY CAN SECURE THE AREA AS WELL AS RESCUE SURFACE VICTIMS. IF WE SHOW UP TO A COLLAPSED SCENE AND WE SHOW UP RIGHT AWAY, WE SEE SURFACE VICTIMS ON TOP OF THE RUBBLE THAT WE CAN ACCESS AND GET TO RIGHT AWAY, INSTEAD OF WASTING TIME AND SECURING THE AREA, WE CAN GO AND SECURE THE VICTIMS THAT WE CAN GET RIGHT AWAY AS WELL AS SECURING THE AREA AT THE SAME TIME.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, UH, FOR THAT.

NOW, AND YOU HAVE CORRECTLY STATED OF BOTH FOR SIMULTANEOUSLY AND IMMEDIATE.

THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, IN THIS CASE, IS IT NECESSARILY THE STEPS OR THE INITIAL ACTION WHICH WOULD BE IMMEDIATE? YES, SIR.

SO WHAT I'M THINKING ON THAT IS, SO WHAT IT'S ASKING IS WHAT IS THE VERY FIRST, UH, ORDER THAT THE COMMANDER'S GONNA GIVE IF THEY COULD BE SIMULTANEOUS, WHICH IS WHAT I'M ASKING FOR, IS HE CAN GIVE US ORDERS TO SECURE THE AREA AS WELL AS RE TO SURFACE AS VICTIMS AT THE SAME TIME.

ONE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE EITHER ONE COULD BE THE FIRST, IT CAN EITHER BE SECURE THE AREA, OR IT COULD BE RESCUE SURFACE VICTIMS. SO THAT'S WHAT I'M ARGUING THAT BOTH OF 'EM CAN BE DIRECT OR CAN BE CORRECT, DEPENDS ON WHAT KIND OF SITUATION AND YOU KNOW, WHICH ONE WE'RE ON.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

BECAUSE YOU JUST IDENTIFIED IT DEPENDS ON THAT SITUATION.

ANYTHING, I DON'T, I DON'T HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. GARR, BUT I JUST WANNA MAKE THE STATEMENT THAT I, I APPRECIATE YOU SUPPLYING THE INFORMATION ON PAGE 2 44.

THAT BRINGS IN SOME AMBIGUITY, UH, BUT ACTUALLY ON PAGE 2 52, WHICH THE AUTHOR THAT THE TEST WRITER HAS SHOWN US THE QUESTION AND THE ANSWER ARE JUST WORD FOR WORD, UH, ONLY ALLOWING, UH, ANSWER B TO BE CORRECT, TO SECURE THE AREA, WHETHER IT'S FIRST OR SIMULTANEOUS, THAT THAT'S STILL IN MY, IN MY WAY THING.

THAT'S STILL THE CORRECT ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION.

EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE, YOU HAVE A, A VALID POINT.

I DON'T, I DON'T ARGUE WITH YOUR POINT, BUT I JUST HAVE A TOUGH TIME OF OVERRULING THE QUESTION.

I WANT TO STATE WORD FOR WORD IN IN THE TEST MATERIAL.

THANK, THANK YOU.

I HAVE ONE MORE QUESTION FOR YOU, .

UM, SO WHEN YOU'RE, WHEN YOU'RE, YOU GAVE US THIS REFERENCE MATERIAL, BUT THE REFERENCE MATERIAL DOES NOT INDICATE ON YOUR PAGE WHO IS GIVING THAT COMMAND, CORRECT? YES, MA'AM.

AND THE QUESTION SPECIFICALLY SAYS THE FIRST ORDER AND INCIDENT COMMANDER ISSUES.

SO IS THAT SEEN SEPARATELY? ARE ARE YOU, ARE YOU SEEING THE INCIDENT COMMANDER AS NOT THE ONE GIVING ALL OF THE, UH, THE ORDERS? NO, MA'AM.

ANY LARGE INCIDENT, ESPECIALLY IN A COLLAPSE.

THE FIRST THING IS WE ARE GONNA SET UP, SOMEONE'S GONNA BE INCIDENT COMMANDER.

AND THEN HE'S GONNA BE THE ONE DICTATING US, WHICH, WHICH ORDERS TO GIVE US WHAT TO DO RIGHT AWAY.

SO ESPECIALLY WITH A SCENE OF THAT SIZE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE SOMEBODY TAKE IT TO THE COMMANDER.

SO YOU ARE GONNA HAVE AN INCIDENT COMMANDER? YES, MA'AM.

THERE AND THERE.

DO YOU ANY MORE DISCUSSION ON NO, I DON'T, NO.

YOU WANT TAKE A, I'LL MAKE A MOTION IF WE, UH, DENY THE APPEAL ON QUESTION 23.

SECOND.

ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE.

ANY WHAT? OH, ANY FROM US? NO.

WELL, YOU JUST NEED TO ASK.

ANY FAVOR? AND THOSE AGAINST ANY AGAINST.

WITH NONE AGAINST THAT.

MOTION PASSES.

THE MOTION PASSES, WE'RE GOING TO DENY THE APPEAL.

THEN WE HAVE THE NEXT QUESTION.

GOING TO THE NEXT ONE.

OH, THERE, IT'S THE NEXT QUESTION NUMBER THAT WE'RE LOOKING INTO IS NUMBER 24.

[00:15:10]

SO ON THIS QUESTION, AGAIN, I DO UNDERSTAND THAT THE QUESTION IS COMING OUTTA THE BOOK, BUT ON PAGE 2 38, DONE RIGHTS, UM, SO EXCUSE ME FROM WHAT I'M GOING FOR IS FOR, UM, A AND D TO B.

CORRECT.

EVEN THOUGH D IS, UM, ALL THE ABOVE.

SO ON PAGE 2 38, IT STATES THE BEST WAY TO GAIN CONTROL OF A COLLAPSED RESCUE EFFORT IS FOR THE INCIDENT COMMANDER TO ISSUE SPECIFIC ASSIGNMENTS TO OFFICERS WHO SHOULD ASSEMBLE THEIR COMPANY MEMBERS AND CARRY OUT ASSIGNMENTS, EXPAND THE INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM, ASSIGNING DIVISION OFFICERS AND GROUP OFFICERS AREAS AND FUNCTIONS OF RESPONSIBILITY, DESIGNATE A VICTIM TRACKING OFFICER, AND MOST IMPORTANT, USE A COLLAPSED RESCUE PLAN.

DISPATCH ESTABLISHES THAT COMMAND OFFICERS ARE THE FIRST OFFICERS DIRECTLY TASKED WITH ASSEMBLING THEIR MEMBERS AND ENSURING COMPLIANCE WITH THE INCIDENT COMMANDS ASSIGNMENTS.

THE VISION AND SECTOR OFFICERS ARE MENTIONED LATER AS THE INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM EXPANDS.

IN OTHER WORDS, UH, RESPONSIBILITY BEGINS WITH THE COMPANY OFFICERS AT THE OUTSET AND THEN BROADENS TO INCLUDE HIGHER LEVEL OFFICERS AS THE OPERATION GROWS.

THEREFORE, WHILE ALL THE ABOVE ENCOMPASSES THE BROADER TRUTH, MY ANSWER ACCOMPANY OFFICERS IS ALSO EXPLICITLY CORRECT UNDER DON'S GUIDANCE, THE TEXT CLEARLY IDENTIFIES THEM AS A FIRST LINE OF RESPONSIBILITY IN CARRYING OUT AND ENFORCING THE INCIDENT COMMANDER'S ORDERS, PARTICULARLY AT THE MOMENT.

THAT'S IT.

THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING FOR THANK YOU.

A TO B ACCEPTED AS WELL.

ANY DISCUSSION? UH, NO.

WELL, ANY QUESTIONS? YES, LET'S, LET'S HAVE THAT MAYBE CONVERSATION BECAUSE WHEN IT STARTS, IT SAYS WHEN A COLLAPSE ZONE IS ORDER NO ALONG, SO THAT'S INITIAL AND THEN ALONG THE WAY THINGS CAN CHANGE.

AND SO THAT RESPONSIBILITY WAS SHIFT, CORRECT? CORRECT.

YES, SIR.

AND YOU ARE WANTING TO, TO AT LEAST CONSIDER ALL OF THE ABOVE AS A ALL THE ABOVE WAS A CORRECT ANSWER, BUT WHAT I'M STATING IS THAT WHENEVER IT COMES TO THE INITIAL COLLAPSE, UM, WHEN IT'S INITIALLY ORDERED, A COLLAPSE ZONE IS IDENTIFIED, THE PERSON IN CHARGE WHO MAKES SURE THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS COMPLY TO ORDERS IS THE COMPANY OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE FIREFIGHTERS.

SO WE WOULDN'T HAVE A SECTOR DIVISION OFFICER OR SECTOR DIVISION CHIEF COME DOWN, SPEAK TO FIREFIGHTERS, TELL 'EM WHAT TO DO WITHOUT FIRST GOING THROUGH THE COMPANY OFFICERS.

AND YOU MENTIONED THAT WOULD BE A DIVISION, I'M SORRY? YOU SAID IT WOULD BE A DIVISION OFFICER? IT'S IF, SO FOR THE CHAIN OF COMMAND, WE HAVE OUR COMPANY OFFICERS AND THEN WHENEVER WE GO THROUGH THE INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE SECTOR OFFICERS IN CHARGE TELL COMPANY OFFICERS, HEY.

SO THEY WOULDN'T GO AND DIRECT, THEY WOULD TELL THERE, BE OFFICERS TO GET WITH THE FIREFIGHTERS AND MAKE SURE THEY COMPLY WITH YOURS IN DIRECTIVE.

THANK YOU FOR THAT EXPLANATION.

I APPRECIATE IT.

I DON'T HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. DAR, BUT, BUT AGAIN, I JUST WANT TO COMMENT THAT ON PAGE 2 63, IT HAS THE QUESTION WRITTEN WORD FOR WORD AND GIVING ALL THREE OF THE, UH, OFFICERS, UH, AS, AS THE CORRECT ANSWER, ALL OF THE ABOVE.

SO AGAIN, I HAVE A TOUGH TIME IN, IN, UH, SEEING ANY AMBIGUITY THERE SINCE IT'S STATED WORD FOR WORD AND, AND THE TEST MATERIAL.

I AGREE.

WE AGREE.

UM, DO WE HAVE A MOTION? YEAH, I'D LIKE TO MAKE A MOTION THAT WE, UH, DENY THE APPEAL.

QUESTION NUMBER 24.

UH, ALL IN FAVOR? AYE.

AND WE HAVE MR. DO MR. AGAIN, STAY UP LITTLE BIT , YOU JUST STAY UP THERE.

ANY OPPOSED? NO OPPOSED.

SO THE RECOMMENDATION TO DENY THE APPEAL IS ACCEPTED.

AND WE'RE GOING TO QUESTION NUMBER 29.

[e. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #29 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

YOU WANT THE CHAIR? I GOT A PROBLEM WALKING BACK AND FORTH.

WELL AS NASA, WHICH IS NASA THEMSELVES AS A PART OF THE, A AVIATION INDUSTRY.

THIS QUESTION IS FOR WHO WAS CRM PROGRAMS RESIDENT DEVELOPED FOR? I DO UNDERSTAND THAT INSIDE THE TEXT IT DOES SAY THE AVID AVIATION INDUSTRY, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE THE HELP OF THE NTSB, THE FAA AS

[00:20:01]

HOWEVER, THE BOOK ALSO EXPLICITLY CREDITS NASA AS A DIRECT DEVELOPER ON PAGE 15, UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF ROBERT, I'M GONNA BUTCHER THIS NAME, JARICH, NASA, FASS, AIR CARRIERS AND OTHERS UNCOUNTED HOURS OF RESEARCH AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WERE SPENT IN DEVELOPING THE CRM PROGRAM.

THIS, THIS PASSAGE CLEARLY IDENTIFIES NASA AS NOT JUST AN OBSERVER OR SUPPORTER, BUT AS A CENTRAL DEVELOPER AND CREATION OF CRM FROM A POSSIBLE NEEDS STANDPOINT.

FURTHER, THE OFF THE OFFICE REINFORCED NASA'S LEADERSHIP ON PAGE 2 65.

WHAT NASA HAS DONE IN IMPLEMENTING THE CRM PROGRAM IS A BENCHMARK FOR ALL INDUSTRIES FOR THESE REASONS.

WHILE AVIATION INDUSTRY IS THE BROAD ANSWER, THE TEXAS ITSELF CLEARLY DIRECTLY IDENTIFIES NASA AS A DEVELOPER NEED FOR CRM, UM, AS WELL AS NASA IS A PART OF THE AVIATION INDUSTRY IN ITSELF.

ANY QUESTIONS? DISCUSSION? UH, I DON'T HAVE ANY QUESTIONS FOR MR. JOSH.

I, I, AGAIN, JUST SO THAT I CAN HAVE THAT UNDERSTANDING.

WHEN, WHEN WE'RE SPEAKING ABOUT AVIATION INDUSTRY YES, SIR.

AND YOU MENTIONED THAT NASA IS WITHIN THAT REAL WITHIN YES, SIR.

BUT IT'S IDENTIFIED IN THE, IN THE BOOK WRITTEN VERBATIM MM-HMM .

TO THAT.

YES SIR.

IT, IT IS VERBATIM IN THE BOOK, BUT IT ALSO GIVES REFERENCE TO REFERENCES TO NASA AS WELL BEING THAT AS WELL.

THAT'S CORRECT.

AND THAT'S, THAT, THAT'S WHAT I'M ARGUING.

IT'S NOT THE FACT THAT IT'S, MY ANSWER IS WORD FOR WORD, BUT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE THINGS LEADING AND SHOWING AND TELLING THAT THEY WERE ALSO A MAIN DEVELOPER AND THINGS OF THAT SUCH FOR RIGHT.

AND, AND I WOULD AGREE WITH THAT BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY THERE'S COMPONENTS THAT ARE ADDED, BROUGHT ALONG AND IMPLEMENTED WITHIN.

BUT IN THIS CASE, WHEN THEY ARE IDENTIFYING THIS AVIATION INDUSTRY, THEY'RE JUST LOOKING FOR THAT PARTICULAR, NOT ALL OF THE ADD-ONS AND THAT WHICH WOULD BE IN EFFECT.

YEP.

AND, AND SO VERBATIM, IT IDENTIFIES AVIATION INDUSTRY, RIGHT? YES, SIR.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND THANK YOU FOR HELPING ME TO UNDERSTAND.

IT DOES, IT HELPS THE UNDERSTANDING OF IT.

DO WE HAVE ANYBODY ELSE THAT SIGNED UP TO SPEAK? UH, WE DO HAVE SOMEONE ELSE SIGNED UP TO SPEAK? UH, CHLOE ULA.

I, I, I PASS.

I'LL BRING OUT OBJECTION, HEARSAY.

NO ONE ELSE IS SPEAKING THEN.

UM, DO WE HAVE A MOTION I MOVE TO DENY THE APPEAL? SPEAKING TO YOUR ? YEAH, I MOVE TO DENY THE APPEAL.

I'LL SECOND THAT.

UH, ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE.

ALL OPPOSED? SO THE MOTION TO DENY THE APPEAL HAS PASSED FOR QUESTION NUMBER 29.

WE'LL MOVE ON TO QUESTION NUMBER

[f. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #34 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

34.

AND, UM, PAT IS ONCE AGAIN, I'M GONNA SKIP THAT ONE.

MR. YOU'RE GONNA NOT SPEAK? NO MA'AM.

OR NO, SIR.

QUESTION NUMBER 41 AND, UH, YES, I ALSO BROUGHT SOME COPIES

UH, ANY DISCUSSION? NO, JUST LOOKING AT THE QUESTION HERE.

UM, NO DISCUSSION ON IT.

NO, I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

WE DENY THE APPEAL ON QUESTION 34.

ALL OPPOSED? SO THE MOTION TO DENY THE APPEAL IS CARRIED? YES.

MM-HMM .

GOING TO

[g. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #41 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

[00:25:01]

FOR YOU.

SO, UM, THE QUESTION ON APPEALING READS, BLANK COMMUNICATION CAN CONSISTS OF OUR APPEARANCE, WHAT WE KEEP NEAR US IN THE WAY OF ITEMS ARE, I'M NOT SURE YOUR MICROPHONE'S ON.

HELLO? NO, IT'S, UH, IT'S GOT A RED BUTTON.

IS THAT ON OR NOT? HELLO? OH GOODNESS.

GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN.

UH, MY QUESTION READS BLANK COMMUNICATION CONSISTS OF OUR APPEARANCE AND WHAT WE, UH, KEEP NEAR US IN THE WAY OF ITEMS ARE KNICK-KNACKS.

UM, THE TEST MAKER STATES THAT THIS IS SYMBOLIC COMMUNICATION AND I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH THAT.

THAT'S, UM, CONSISTENT IN THE TEXT.

UH, THE TEXT ALSO DE DEFINES NON-VERBAL COMMUNICATION.

UH, IN THE HIGHLIGHTED SECTION THAT I PROVIDED, IT SAYS, HOW MANY TIMES A DAY HAVE YOU RECEIVED A NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION? ONE WITHOUT ANY WORDS, CERTAINLY SYMBOLIC COMMUNICATION IS CORRECT, BUT I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT THIS IS COMMUNICATION WITHOUT ANY WORDS, WHICH WOULD BE A NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION.

AND SO BOTH ANSWERS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED CORRECT.

AND THEN WE HAVE AGAIN NO, YOUR OTHER SHEET CHECK MY OTHER SHEET.

YES.

WE HAVE THAT PASS ON IT.

QUESTION 41, QUESTION NUMBER 41, MR. DO? NO, HE SAID TO PASS.

SO ANY DISCUSSION? FINAL INTERVIEW, JUST THE ONE, UH, FOR ME.

UH, THE REFERENCE THAT YOU JUST GAVE, WHERE DID IT COME FROM? THIS IS FROM THE EXACT SAME BOOK IN THE EXACT SAME CHAPTER.

I THINK IT'S THE PREVIOUS PAGE FROM THE ONE QUOTE QUOTED BY THE, UH, BY THE TEST MAKER.

YEAH, THE, THE PAGE NUMBER WAS CUT OFF.

WE WERE JUST, YEAH, I CAN'T SEE.

OH, I APOLOGIZE.

IT'S PAGE 1 0 1.

IT'S, UH, PAGE 1 0 1.

IT SAYS THAT IN MY LIKE APPEAL PAGE.

AND I HAVE THE BOOK IF YOU WANNA SEE IT, BUT IT IS, IT IS FROM THE BOOK.

QUESTION NUMBER 45 AND WE HAVE MR. DAR AGAIN.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS? UH, NO QUESTIONS FOR MS. MATULA, BUT JUST, JUST AGAIN, MY COMMENT WHEN, WHEN THE QUESTIONS WORD FOR WORD IN THE TEST MATERIAL AND THE AUTHORS QUOTING THAT IT'S HARD, BUT, OKAY.

YES, I THAT, UH, I'M GONNA MAKE A MOTION.

WE, EXCUSE ME, THE MOTION TO DENY THE APPEAL ON QUESTION 41 IS YES.

WE NOW GO TO

[h. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #45 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

I'LL PASS IT.

I PASS IT AGAIN.

AND ON THIS PAGE WE HAVE MR. POOL AGAIN.

NOTION, UH, TO DENY THE APPEAL ON QUESTION 45.

GOOD EVENING AGAIN.

UM, OKAY, SO ON THIS QUESTION IT STATES, THIS IS A LONG ONE, I'M SORRY, .

ACCORDING TO DISCRIMINATORY, DISCRIMINATORY HARASSMENT, MEMBERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO PROMPTLY REPORT ANY DISCRIMINATORY, DISCRIMINATORY, RETALIATORY OR HARASSING CONDUCT OR KNOWN VIOLATIONS OF THIS POLICY TO A SUPERVISOR.

ANY MEMBER WHO IS NOT COMFORTABLE WITH REPORTING VIOLATIONS OF THE POLICY TO THE MEMBER'S, IMMEDIATE SUPERVISOR MAY BYPASS THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND MAKE THE REPORT TO A HIGHER RANKING SUPERVISOR OR MANAGER.

COMPLAINTS MAY BE, MAY ALSO BE FILED WITH, AND THEN IT PROVIDES, UM, FOUR OPTIONS.

THE FIRE CHIEF, THE CITY ATTORNEY, THE HUMAN RESOURCES DIRECTOR, OR BOTH A NCR.

CORRECT ANSWERS.

I WOULD FIRST LIKE TO SAY THAT, SORRY TO, ARE YOU, ARE YOU SPEAKING TO YOUR NEXT APPEAL QUESTION 94? YES, THEY'RE STILL ON 44.

OH, I'M SO SORRY.

I PASSED 45 TO SPEAK AS A, I'M SORRY, I DIDN'T REALIZE YOU ARE STILL ON ITEM THREE H.

THAT, THAT, THAT'S MY MISTAKE.

I'M SORRY GUYS.

SHE SIGNED UP TO SPEAK BILL ON THREE H.

OH, OKAY.

BUT IH OKAY.

NOBODY ELSE SIGNED TO SPEAK.

UM, I'LL MAKE A

[00:30:01]

ALL IN FAVOR SAY AYE.

CAN I ASK A QUESTION HERE? YOU JUST SO I'M CLEAR, YOU'VE GOT, I'VE GOT TWO NOTICES OF APPEAL AND ONE OF 'EM IS DATED, I THINK A DAY LATER THAN THE OTHER, BOTH FROM YOU.

ALL OPPOSED.

MOTION TO DENY THE APPEAL ON QUESTION NUMBER 45 AS PASSED.

THAT'S WHY I CONFUSED.

[i. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #85 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

IS ONE OF 'EM AMENDED OR YES, IT'S SECOND ONE.

THE LONGER ONE SHOULD HAVE BEEN AMENDED.

ALRIGHT, SO THE, THE AMENDED ONE, UH, JUST FOR A CLARIFICATION, IS THE ONE WE'RE GOING ON TODAY, CORRECT? YES, SIR.

OKAY, MR. DOR, QUESTION NUMBER 85 WHEN IT STATES A BLANK COMMAND IS AN EXPANSION OF THE INCIDENT COMMAND FUNCTION, PRIMARILY DESIGNED TO MANAGE A VERY LARGE INCIDENT THAT HAS MULTIPLE MANAGEMENT TEAMS ASSIGNED.

I'M ASKING FOR, UM, ANSWER NUMBER C BRANCHES TO BE ACCEPTED AS ONE OF THE TEST ANSWERS.

AND, UH, ONE OF THE SITES I DID, YOU'LL HAVE FROM PAGE 180 BRANCH CAN EITHER BE GEOGRAPHIC OR FUNCTIONAL AND ARE COMPRISED OF MULTIPLE GROUPS AND DIVISIONS.

THEY ARE VERY EFFECTIVE FOR LARGER, MORE COMPLEX INCIDENTS LIKE MCI HAZMAT OR EXTREMELY LARGE BUILDING FIRES LIKE REGIONAL MOS, MASSIVE APARTMENT COMPLEXES, HIGH RISES, OR FIRES THAT INVOLVE MULTIPLE BUILDING OR LARGE AREAS.

I DID WANNA ALSO QUOTE FOR SOMETHING THAT THE TEST MAKER DID SAY BACK.

HE DID STATE THERE ARE BRANCHES WHICH CAN BE USED WITHIN THE INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM.

AND THESE ARE USED TO MANAGE LARGE INCIDENTS, ALTHOUGH THERE MIGHT BE SOME SIMILARITY BETWEEN BRANCHES AND AREAS.

HE QUOTES THAT AN AREA COMMAND IS USUALLY ESTABLISHED, BUT NOT ALWAYS AT ANY TIME.

MULTIPLE INCIDENTS ARE CLOSE ENOUGH THAT OVERSIGHT DIRECTION IS REQUIRED AMONG INCIDENT MANAGEMENT TEAMS TO ENSURE CONFLICTS DO NOT ARISE.

HE QUOTED A BRANCH IS ESTABLISHED WITHIN A SINGLE INCIDENT THAT IS VERY LARGE, SUCH AS A LARGE WAREHOUSE, HAZMAT, HIGH RISE, OR FIRES INVOLVING MULTIPLE BUILDINGS.

AND THEN ALSO, UM, THIS QUESTION, UM, PASSED.

AND THE QUESTION, WHENEVER IT STATES FOR A VERY LARGE INCIDENT, THAT'S ALSO QUOTED RIGHT THERE FOR A BRANCH THAT BRANCHES ARE FOR VERY LARGE INCIDENCES AS WELL.

AND THEN DISCUSSION.

YOU RIGHT? UH, I HAVE NO QUESTIONS FOR MR. DO MR. DO, WOULD YOU, I WON'T CALL IT ENTERTAIN ME, BUT WOULD YOU EXPLAIN PLEASE, UM, BECAUSE IN THE QUESTION WHEN IT ASKS, YOU KNOW, A BLANK COMMAND, UM, IS THE EXPANSION AND, AND YOUR REFERENCE WHICH YOU GAVE AND, AND THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE, FOR THE COPY.

AND, AND THAT'S OCCASIONALLY RIGHT? CORRECT.

YEAH.

SO JUST UNDERSTANDING FOR ME, UNDERSTANDING THAT, SO OCCASIONALLY THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE, IF SO, IF THAT'S THE CASE, IF BRANCHES ARE OCCASIONAL, SO OUR AREA COMMAND, WE HAVE INCIDENTS THAT JUST TAKES ONE INCIDENT COMMANDER, OR WE HAVE LARGE INCIDENTS THAT TAKES ONE OVER THE ENTIRE SCENE THAT HE CREATES OTHER DIVISIONS OF HIS COMMAND STAFF FOR IN ORDER TO BRING HIS, UH, HIS AUTHORITY DOWN AND DELEGATE SO HE CAN FOCUS ON THE MAIN INCIDENT AT HAND.

AND SMALL TASKS CAN BE BRANCHED OUT INTO DIFFERENT, AS IN, I BELIEVE I ATTACHED A, UH, A CHART OF A UNIFIED COMMAND SYSTEM.

UM, THAT'S JUST AN EXAMPLE HOW AS LARGE INCIDENT TRANSPIRES, IT COULD BRANCH OUT INTO A LAW BRANCH OR A MEDICAL BRANCH.

NOW, ON TOP OF THOSE WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THOSE BRANCHES WILL BE THAT BRANCH COMMAND

[00:35:01]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT CLARITY.

UM, WITH THE QUESTION THAT IS AT HAND THOUGH, VERBATIM, THAT PARTICULAR QUESTION AS IT IS WRITTEN COMES DIRECTLY FROM THE SOURCE.

YES, SIR.

AND THEN YOU CAN GO A LITTLE FURTHER AND FIND ADDITIONAL INFORMATION MM-HMM .

UH, THAT COULD POSSIBLY REFERENCE OR TOUCH THAT SAME ITEM.

CORRECT.

BUT IN THIS CASE IT'S, IT'S SPECIFIC.

RIGHT.

THANK YOU AGAIN.

I, I, AGAIN, I THANK YOU FOR, UH, YOUR EXPERTISE IN HELPING ME UNDERSTAND EVEN MORE.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR DISCUSSIONS? NO, I DON'T HAVE ANY.

NO, I DON'T EITHER.

UM, WITH THAT I'M GONNA MAKE A MOTION TO DENY THE APPEAL FOR QUESTION.

UH, IS IT NINE FOUR, THE 1 9 5? WE'RE ON FIVE.

QUESTION NUMBER 85.

I'D SECOND THAT MOTION.

ALL IN FAVOR? AYE.

ALL OPPOSED? ALL RIGHT.

THE MOTION TO DENY THE APPEAL HAS PASSED.

QUESTION NUMBER EIGHT FIVE ON TO QUESTION NUMBER

[j. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #94 from the Fire Captain promotional examination, which was administered on August 14, 2025.]

NINE, FOUR DOULA.

UM, ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU.

I READ THE QUESTION EARLIER, SO I WON'T DO THAT AGAIN.

UM, I'D FIRST LIKE TO STATE IN THE RESPONSE THAT THE TEST MAKER PROVIDED, THEY STATED, UM, THAT THE QUESTION WAS TAKEN VERBATIM FROM THE SOURCE, BUT THE REFERENCE MATERIAL THEY'VE PROVIDED IS NOT VERBATIM.

UM, SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE HIGHLIGHTED SECTION, IT IS NOT A VERBATIM COPY OF THE QUESTION.

MY COMPLAINT COMES WHERE, UM, THE PO THE QUESTION, UH, RECOMMEND OR SAYS THAT A MEMBER MAY BYPASS THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND MAKE THE REPORT TO A HIGHER RANK RANKING SUPERVISOR OR MANAGER.

IT SAYS THE COMPLAINTS MAY ALSO BE FILED WITH BLAKE IN THE FIRE SERVICE.

THE FIRE CHIEF IS A HIGHER RANKING SUPERVISOR IN THE FIRE DEPARTMENT.

SO HE IS ALREADY INCLUDED IN THE QUESTION.

SO THE ONLY, THE ONLY POSSIBLE ANSWER BECAUSE CITY ATTORNEY IS NOT MENTIONED IN THE, IN THE PROCEDURE HAS TO BE BECAUSE THE FIRE CHIEF IS ALREADY, UM, THIS IS NOT PORTION.

DOES ANYBODY ELSE SIGN UP THIS WEEK? UH, YES, I'VE ASKED.

I'VE GOT A COMMENT.

UM, SINCE THIS, UH, QUESTION IS, IS NOT VERBATIM OUT OF THE TEST MATERIAL AS THE OTHERS HAVE BEEN, AND YOU MAKE THE POINT THAT YOU, YOU'RE READING IT AS WHERE THE FIRE CHIEF IS ALREADY INCLUDED IN THAT, AND THEN THE ONLY ONE LEFT IS THE HUMAN RESOURCE DIRECTOR.

UM, I, I MIGHT FIND SOME, UH, SOME GRAY AREA IN THIS ONE, EVEN THOUGH THE ANSWER IS CERTAINLY STATED ON PAGE, UM, I GUESS 2 94, 2 94, IT'S IN OUR, OUR MATERIAL HERE.

UM, I COULD, I COULD SEE SOME LOGIC IN THAT AND IT MAY, MAY NOT BE AS CLEAR CUT AS THE OTHERS WERE.

SO JUST MY COMMENT, I CAN SEE THAT, I CAN SEE WHAT, I CAN SEE YOUR POINT ON THAT AS FAR AS YEAH, BECAUSE IT IS SAYING BOTH FIRE CHIEF AND HUMAN RESOURCE DIRECTOR, AND AGAIN, IT ISN'T VERBATIM AS WE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

AND AGAIN, THEY, OKAY.

WELL, BASED ON THAT, I'LL MAKE A, A MOTION THAT WE ACCEPT THE APPEAL FOR QUESTION NUMBER 94 AND GIVE ANSWERS, UH, ACCEPT ANSWERS C AND D AS CORRECT.

I, YOU, I SECOND.

UH, ALL IN FAVOR? UH, AYE, AYE.

AND ALL OPPOSED? NO ONE OPPOSED.

QUESTION NUMBER 94, WE WILL ACCEPT THE APPEAL AND MAKE, UH, BOTH THE ANSWER D AND C, CORRECT.

UH, WE NOW ARE ON TO, UH, CHRIS, UH, BE BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO THE FIRE ENGINEER EXAM, AS, AS WE'RE FINISHING UP THIS SECTION HERE.

[00:40:09]

UH, I JUST WANTED TO COMMENT, UM, MR. D, EVEN THOUGH WE DENIED ALL OF YOUR APPEALS, UH, I JUST WANTED TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON, ON THE THOROUGHNESS AND EXPLANATION AND CLARITY OF THOUGHT AND, AND, AND I READ EVERY ONE OF YOUR APPEALS ON THERE.

UH, I'VE BEEN ON THE COMMISSION QUITE A WHILE AND I DON'T EVER REMEMBER, UH, SEEING SUCH DETAILED THOUGHT AND, AND TRYING, TRYING TO BRING IN A GRAY AREA, BUT I JUST WANT TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON, ON YOUR JOB, EVEN THOUGH WE DIDN'T ACCEPT YOUR APPEALS, UH, THEY WERE WELL THOUGHT OUT AND, AND I, I JUST WANNA COMPLIMENT YOU ON THAT.

THANK YOU, SIR.

OKAY, THANK YOU.

MOVING FORWARD, WE ARE ON TO NOW THIS NEXT SECTION, IT'S GONNA BE QUESTION 18 ON THE FIRE ENGINEER TEAM.

RIGHT? BUT THAT'S, WE SWITCHED.

SORRY.

UH, ONTO QUESTION 18.

YES.

AND WE HAVE, UM, I CAN BARELY READ THE WRITING.

MARIN MARTIN S MARTIN.

I'M SORRY.

I, I, I WAS WAITING FOR THE LAST NAME TO GET WONKY ANYWAYS.

IS IT, IS IT S MR. UH, SLIC, SIR S YES.

I WILL BE WITHDRAWING THIS APPEAL ANYWAYS.

UH, I,

[k. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #18 from the Fire Engineer promotional examination, which was administered on August 15, 2025.]

AND HAS ANYBODY ELSE SIGNED UP FOR NUMBER 18, QUESTION 18? NO, NOBODY ELSE HAS SIGNED UP FOR QUESTION 18.

SO WITH THAT, WE TAKE NO ACTION ON THAT.

NO ACTION.

QUESTION NUMBER FOUR, TWO ON FIRE AND COMMERCIAL EXAM.

SO THE NEXT QUESTION WE'RE COMING TO IS

[l. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #42 from the Fire Engineer promotional examination, which was administered on August 15, 2025.]

AND WE HAVE, UM, SLIC, IS THAT PRONOUNCED RIGHT? MR. SEABERG SEPARATE? YES.

SEPARATE.

NO QUESTION NUMBER 42.

MR. SEABERG IS THE APPELLANT QUESTION SEABERG, AND I'M WITHDRAWING IT.

YOU GONNA WITHDRAW? OKAY.

GOOD JOB.

NOW, MR. BECK, DAVE'S HAD MUCH MORE PRACTICE AT THIS THAN I HAVE.

YOU, YOU WANNA SPEAK EITHER, DID YOU WANNA SPEAK ON THAT QUESTION? NO, MA'AM.

SO THOSE APPEALS HAVE BEEN WITHDRAWN, NO ACTION.

AND ON QUESTION NUMBER 74 PIECES OF PAPER UP HERE, IT'S MR. BRYANT? YES, MS. BRYANT.

HELLO.

ON, UH, QUESTION 74, UH, THEY LIST THE CORRECT ANSWER AS THREE FIREFIGHTERS MINIMUM ON THE ROOF FOR VERTICAL VENTILATION.

UM, HOWEVER, IN THE SAME REFERENCED MATERIAL ON PAGE ONE 40, UM, THE MATERIAL SITES NFPA 1710, WHICH STATES A MINIMUM OF TWO FIREFIGHTERS SHOULD BE ON THE ROOF FOR VERTICAL VENTILATION.

UM, ALSO IN THE TEST MAKE'S, UM, RESPONSE TO THE QUESTION, HE STATES THAT THAT NFPA POLICY IS ONLY REFERRING TO HORIZONTAL VENTILATION, WHICH IN THE TEXT IT CLEARLY STATES IT IS REFERRING ONLY TO VERTICAL VENTILATION.

SO EITHER THERE'S AN ERROR IN THE, THE MATERIAL ITSELF OR THE TEST MAKER HAS AN ERROR.

THE HIGHLIGHT THE NFPA POLICY AND THEN WERE THEY REFERENCING WHAT'S REFERRING TO? SO LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION THEN.

ANY QUESTIONS? AND I HAVE THAT HERE IF YOU NEED IT.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE

[00:45:02]

IS THE, KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT VERTICAL VENTILATION, IS IT, IS THERE A DIFFERENCE? YOU SAID VERTICAL VERSUS, YEAH, VERTICAL VENTILATION REFERRING TO VENTILATING A STRUCTURE FROM THE ROOF VERSUS HORIZONTAL USING WINDOWS AND DOORS SUCH FOR VENTILATION.

SO, AND THEN THE TEST MAKER, IT'S SAYING THAT THAT POLICY IS REVERT, REFERRING TO HORIZONTAL, WHERE IN THE BOOK IT CLEARLY STATES IT'S REFERRING TO VERTICAL.

SO THE BOOK ITSELF CONTRADICTS ITSELF? WELL, THE, THE TEST, UH, ON PAGE TWO 15 REFERS TO VERTICAL VENTILATION, NOT HORIZONTAL.

AND AGAIN, RIGHT.

THEY BOTH, THEY BOTH REFER TO VERTICAL VENTILATION.

YEAH.

AND AGAIN, JUST I DON'T HAVE A QUESTION.

JUST MY COMMENT IS AGAIN, THE QUESTIONS TAKEN WORD FOR WORD OUT OF THE TEST MATERIAL TO SHOW THAT THREE IS THE CORRECT ANSWER.

UNDERSTAND THIS.

SORRY FOLKS.

GIMME JUST A SECOND HERE.

WHAT YOUR AND THIS ONE HERE, ACTION.

SO THE QUESTION IS, CAN WE ALSO CONFIRM NO ONE ELSE IS SIGNED UP TO SPEAK BEFORE YOU'ALL MAKE A WISH GONNA SPEAK.

I'M SIGNED UP.

SEVEN

[m. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #74 from the Fire Engineer promotional examination, which was administered on August 15, 2025.]

FOUR? YES, MR. THANK YOU.

UM, INTO UH, REFERENCE OF THE QUESTION WHICH WAS ON PAGE TWO 15, IDEALLY NO LESS THAN THREE PERSONNEL SHOULD PERFORM VERTICAL VENTILATION ON A ROOF.

THE, UM, APPELLANT HAD REFERENCED PAGE ONE 40, WHICH UH, STATES NFPA 1710, CHAPTER FIVE, FIRE DEPARTMENT SERVICES, TYPICAL SINGLE FAMILY DWELLING FIRE, 2000 SQUARE FEET WITHOUT A BASEMENT AND NO EXPOSURES, PROVISIONS OF AT LEAST ONE TEAM CONSISTING OF MINIMUM OF TWO MEMBERS TO RAISE GROUND LADDERS AND PERFORM VENTILATION.

THERE IS NO REFERENCE TO HORIZONTAL LOWER IN THAT PAGE.

IN THE PROCEED IN THE, UH, FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH NNPA 1710, THE PROVISION OF PERSONNEL FOR VENTILATION IS CENTERED AROUND PEOPLE AND EQUIPMENT TO SUPPORT VERTICAL VENTILATION OPERATIONS.

AND UM, IT IS STATED THAT THESE ARE IN ON PAGE 1 31 NFPA 1710 SETS OUT THE BASELINE PERFORMANCE AND SUPPORT EXPECTATIONS FOR FOUR OCCUPANCY TYPES.

THIS IS GIVING REFERENCE TO, UH, MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS OF MEMBERS NEEDED, NOT IDEALLY.

IDEALLY IT IS STILL THREE.

UH, THE QUESTION DOES REFERENCE THE BOOK DIRECTLY.

AND SO IT IS A VALID QUESTION PER, UH, YOUR PREVIOUS RESPONSES ON WORD FOR WORD QUESTIONS FROM THE BOOK, RIGHT? AND THEN IT IS ASKING IDEALLY AS OPPOSED TO MINIMUM STANDARDS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANK YOU SIR.

ANYBODY ELSE SIGNED UP TO SPEAK? I HAVE THE PAGES MARKED TOO, IF YOU'D LIKE THE ONES I REFERENCED.

THAT HELPS.

MR. BRYANT WOULD STILL HAVE YOUR BOOK HERE? YEAH.

YES.

UM, AND MR. SEBER? UH, I'M NOT GONNA ADD ANYTHING.

MR. WAS ONE HERE AS WELL ON 74.

GOT NO OTHER SPEAKERS.

GOT THAT.

AND NO OTHER SPEAKERS.

MR THREE.

UH, BASED ON THAT, I'M GONNA MAKE A MOTION TO DENY THE APPEAL FOR QUESTION 74.

[00:50:02]

UM, I, ALL THOSE IN FAVOR? AYE.

ALL THOSE OPPOSED? ALRIGHT.

NO OPPOSITION NUMBER SEVEN.

FOUR, ANSWER B, DENY THE APPEAL.

UM, AND ANSWER B WILL STAND ON TWO.

QUESTION NUMBER SEVEN.

[n. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #77 from the Fire Engineer promotional examination, which was administered on August 15, 2025.]

SEVEN.

AND JUST FOR THE COMMISSION TO BE AWARE ON THE NEXT TWO QUESTIONS, THERE'S MULTIPLE APPELLANTS, THERE'S TWO ON THIS NEXT ONE AND THEN FOUR ON THE ONE FOLLOWING THAT.

SO THE APPELLATES NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK BEFORE YOU CALL ANYBODY SIGNED AT THAT'S NOT AN APPELLATE.

OKAY? OKAY.

FIRST ONE IS, UH, MR. ALEXANDER, I MEAN MR. LOCKLIN HERE.

OH YES.

NOT PRESENT.

UH, SECOND ONE IS, UH, MR. SEABIRD, UH, I'LL WITHDRAW THAT.

YOU ARE GONNA WITHDRAW YOUR APPEAL.

WE STILL NEED TO ACT ON MR. LOCKHART'S, CORRECT? OKAY.

WE STILL NEED TO ACT ON HIS MM-HMM .

THERE'S, THERE'S TWO APPEALS ON THE SAME QUESTION.

AND THEN, UH, I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

WE DENY THE APPEAL ON QUESTION 77 AND THERE WAS NOBODY ELSE SIGNED TO SPEAK BEFORE YOU MRS. UH, IF WE JUST BE DENIED I NOT WITHDRAW.

PASS MY, I THINK TO SPEAK ONLINE.

I HONOR HE GETS TO B***H CHOOSE TO.

AND I'M SORRY, YOU SAID WHAT? UH, IF THE ACTION IS TO DENY THE APPEAL, THEN I WITHDRAW MY PROTEST.

AND YOU ARE, WHAT'S YOUR NAME? MARTIN SPL.

SIR, I SIGNED UP TO SPEAK AGAINST THE APPEAL.

ALL THOSE IN FAVOR? AYE.

ALL THOSE OPPOSED? NO OPPOSED.

QUESTION NUMBER 77 DENIED THE APPEAL.

B STANDS NOW ON TO

[o. Conduct hearing and consider the appeal of Question #86 from the Fire Engineer promotional examination, which was administered on August 15, 2025.]

QUESTION NUMBER 86.

AND WE HAVE MR. BRYANT, UH, I'LL PASS.

AND MR. S UH, SO, UM, THE QUESTION IS IN REFERENCE TO EXCEEDING THE UH, SPEED LIMIT DURING EMERGENCY TRAFFIC, UM, I HAD RECOGNIZED THAT MY APPEAL, THE UM, TEST MAKER HAD STATED THAT HE HAD IN FACT MARKED THE INCORRECT ANSWER AND THAT HE, UM, ACKNOWLEDGED THE CORRECT ANSWER AS BEING 10 MILES PER HOUR.

BUT I DID NOTICE THAT HE HAD, UM, RECOMMENDED ACCEPTING BOTH THE INCORRECT ANSWER THAT WAS ORIGINALLY MARKED AND THE CORRECT ANSWER, UH, THE INCORRECT BEING FIVE MILES PER HOUR, WHICH IF ACCEPTED THAT WOULD UH, NEGATE THE ABILITY OF THE CORRECT ANSWER TO BE CORRECT BECAUSE 10 MILES PER HOUR EXCEEDS FIVE.

SO MY APPEAL WAS, OR MY UH, REQUEST IS TO CHANGE THE CORRECT ANSWER TO 10 MILES PER HOUR AND ONLY THAT ONE UH, AND MARK THE ORIGINALLY UH, MARKED CORRECT ANSWERS INCORRECT.

OKAY, THANK YOU.

ALRIGHT, AND UH, THEN MR. LOCKHART IS NOT HERE AND THEN, UH, MR. SEBER UH, DID OUTTA WHAT HE SAID.

THAT'S ALL I WAS GONNA SAY.

SO .

UH, BASED ON THAT, UNLESS THERE'S ANY QUESTIONS FROM THE COMMISSION, UH, I'LL MAKE A MOTION THAT WE ACCEPT THE APPEAL AND CHANGE THE CORRECT ANSWER FROM A TO ONLY B FOR QUESTION 86 A SECOND.

AND BEFORE YOU AND NO ONE ELSE ASSIGNED TO SPEAK ON THE ITEM THAT WASN'T AN APPELLANT? NO.

OKAY, THANK YOU.

JUST THE TWO THAT WERE THERE.

YEAH, JUST THE SAME ONES THAT WERE ON HERE.

IN FAVOR OF THAT MOTION ON QUESTION NUMBER 86? AYE.

SO I MADE THE MOTION SECONDED.

SECOND IT.

SO ALL

[00:55:01]

AND ANY OPPOSED? NO ONE OPPOSED.

SO THE ANSWER THEN IS, AND CORRECT ANSWER WOULD BE B, THE CORRECT ANSWER WOULD BE B.

YEAH, SO THAT WOULD BE HERE.

TO REGRADE THE TESTS, UH, BEING NO OTHER APPEALS FOR THE ITEM.

I THINK THAT'S THE, I THINK THAT'S THE END OF THE TEST RESULTS.

SO SINCE THERE WERE SOME CHANGES, WE'RE GONNA RE TAKE A RECESS

[p. Recess to regrade tests, if necessary.]

THE, WE ARE GOING TO RECESS TO REGRADE THE TEST AND WE WILL EDIT THE RECESS.

AND THE TIME IS CURRENTLY TWO OH WELL TIME JUST CHANGED AT 3:00 PM WE WILL REOPEN THE MEETING AFTER THE TESTS HAVE BEEN REGRADED.

ALL RIGHT, IT IS, ARE WE READY?

[q. Reconvene the Civil Service Appeal Hearing.]

3:54 PM AND UH, WE ARE GOING TO RECONVENE THE APPEAL HEARING FOR THE FIRE BATTALION AND DIVISION CHIEF AND THE FIRE CAPTAIN AND FIRE ENGINEER PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATIONS WHICH WERE ADMINISTERED ON AUGUST 14TH AND AUGUST 15TH, 2025.

WE WILL NOW MOVE TO UH, RECONVENING AND WE'RE GOING TO,

[r. Certification of the Fire Battalion Chief / Division Chief, Fire Captain, and Fire Engineer eligibility lists.]

THERE'S THREE DIFFERENT SECTIONS.

SO THE FIRST SECTION, THE FIRE BATTALION DIVISION CHIEF SCORE WILL NOW BE READ.

SO BATTALION CHIEF STARTING WITH RANK OF ONE, UH, LAST NAME KELLY JEFF FILE SCORE 100 NUMBER TWO, UH, CC ANTHONY SCORE OF 95 SALMO ROBERT SCORE OF 90 LUCIDO GEORGE SCORE OF 89 WEAVER JAMES SCORE OF 84.

HERBERT JOSEPH SCORE OF 84 AND SINSKI DAVID SCORE OF 81.

AND WE'RE GONNA GO ON TO THE FIRE CAPTAIN AND, AND AGAIN READING IN RANK RANK NUMBER ONE, UH, LAST NAME OF MATULA, FIRST NAME CHLOE SCORE OF 1 0 2.

NUMBER TWO, HENDERSON ZACHARY SCORE OF 100.

RANK NUMBER THREE, DAR TRENT 100, RANK FOUR HUGHES JOHN 84, RANK FIVE RODRIGUEZ ESTEBAN SCORE OF 82.

AND THEN WE'RE GONNA GO TO FIRE ENGINEER.

RANK ONE AND I CAN PRONOUNCE THIS ONE.

CLIC MARTIN SCORE OF 1 0 2.

RANK NUMBER TWO, SEABERG BRIGHTON SCORE OF 1 0 1.

NUMBER THREE, LOCKARD ALEXANDER SCORE OF 99 4 BRYANT BRADLEY SCORE OF 93 RANK FIVE SPEARS BRANDON SCORE OF 91 RANK SIX CRUZ JASON SCORE OF 97 JUNE GILBERT SCORE OF 89.

NUMBER EIGHT, BLAIR PHILLIP SCORE OF 86 9.

PHILLIPS THOMAS SCORE OF 86 10.

ROB ROBERTO ROBLIDO ANTHONY SCORE OF 86.

NUMBER 11 BOGGS STEVEN SCORE OF 85.

NUMBER 12 HOUSE HA , I DON'T KNOW IF I CAN HELP YOU WITH THAT.

ONE IS HAIL.

HAIL GARY SCORE OF 85.

NUMBER 13 CORDOVA JOE SCORE OF 83 14 JONES RYAN SCORE OF 82 15 SCHWEISS.

YES ROBERT SCORE OF 80 16 MARKHAM WILLIAM SCORE OF 78 17 HENRY ANTHONY SCORE OF 77 AND 18 GRACE MACK SCORE OF 76.

AND FOR THE RECORD TIE BREAKING PROCEDURES ALREADY HAD BEEN APPLIED BASED ON THE RANKS.

OKAY, SO WE UH, NOW MOVE TO

[01:00:01]

ENTERTAIN A MOTION ON APPROVING THE SCORES.

I'LL MAKE A MOTION.

WE CERTIFY THE SCORES FOR THE FIRE BATTALION CHIEF DIVISION, CHIEF FIRE CAPTAIN, AND FIRE ENGINEER ELIGIBILITY TEST RESULTS.

I SECOND THAT MOTION.

ALL THOSE IN FAVOR SAY AYE.

AYE, AYE.

ALL OPPOSED SAY NAY OR NO OPPOSED FOR STAND.

THE LIST IS HEREBY CERTIFIED AS OF SEPTEMBER 4TH, 2025 AND I WILL NOW CLOSE THE APPEAL HEARING FOR THE FIRE BATTALION DIVISION CHIEF, THE FIRE CAPTAIN, AND THE FIRE ENGINEER PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATIONS, WHICH WERE ADMINISTERED ON AUGUST 14TH AND AUGUST 15TH, 2025.

AND WE ARE DONE.

THANK YOU AJOUR.