Mar 13, 2025 CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION

[00:00:04]

I NOW CALL TO ORDER THE

[ CITY OF BAYTOWN NOTICE OF MEETING CITY COUNCIL WORK SESSION THURSDAY, MARCH 13, 2025 5:30 P.M. COUNCIL CHAMBER, CITY HALL 2401 MARKET STREET, BAYTOWN, TEXAS 77520 AGENDA CALL TO ORDER AND ANNOUNCEMENT OF QUORUM ]

COUNCIL CHAMBER, CITY HALL, BAYTOWN, TEXAS 7 7 5 2 0.

AN ANNOUNCEMENT OF A QUORUM AT 5 33.

CITIZEN COMMENT,

[1. CITIZEN COMMENTS Notice is hereby given that in accordance with the Texas Open Meetings Act, Texas Government Code, Chapter 551, prohibits the City Council from discussing, deliberating, or considering, subjects for which public notice has not been given on the agenda. Issues that cannot be referred to the administration for action may be placed on the agenda of a future City Council Session.]

OKAY.

WELL, THE PURPOSE OF CITIZEN COMMENT IS TO GIVE ALL INTERESTED CITIZENS THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS THEIR VIEWS.

EVERYONE DESIRING TO SPEAK SHOULD HAVE EITHER SIGNED THE APPROPRIATE LIST IN THE FOUR YEAR, OR EMAILED THE CITY CLERK PRIOR TO THE POSTED TIME OF THIS MEETING.

EACH CITIZEN SHALL GIVE HIS OR HER NAME AND ADDRESS IN ORDER TO PROVIDE A PROPER RECORD OF THESE COMMENTS.

THE RULES ALLOW ONE, EACH PERSON ONE MINUTE TO SPEAK.

A CITIZEN MAY PASS HIS OR HER TIME TO ANOTHER PERSON WHO HAS REQUESTED TO ADDRESS COUNSEL.

HOWEVER, NO CITIZEN REMARKS SHALL EXCEED THREE MINUTES IN TOTAL.

EITHER THE ONE MINUTE OR THE THREE MINUTE LIMIT MAY BE EXTENDED BY A MAJORITY VOTE OF COUNCIL.

I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO BE AS BRIEF AND TO THE POINT AS POSSIBLE.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, COUNCIL DOES NOT DISCUSS THE DELIBERATE ON ITEMS FOR WHICH PUBLIC NOTICE HAS NOT BEEN GIVEN ON THIS AGENDA.

AND WE HAVE MS. JUNE STANSKI.

PLEASE STATE YOUR ADDRESS.

GOOD EVENING.

UM, I'M AT 46 0 1 DRIFTWOOD DRIVE, BAYTOWN, TEXAS 7 7 5 2 1.

GOOD ENOUGH? YES, MA'AM.

THAT'S GOOD.

OKAY.

UM, I AM A MEMBER OF A COUNCIL PERSON GRIFFITHS DISTRICT, AND I APPLIED TO BE ON THE BOND COMMITTEE AND, UM, DID NOT GET APPOINTED AND I'M VERY UPSET, BUT PERTURBED THAT A APPLICANT WHO MADE HER, UM, APPLICATION HERE AT A MEETING WAS APPROVED AND ACCEPTED WHEN MINE WAS ON TIME.

SO I WOULD'VE LIKED TO BEEN ON THE V COMMITTEE, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

SECONDLY, UM, I AM VERY DISTURBED THAT, UH, MR. GRIFFITH, UM, CRITICIZED A NOMINEE, UM, CRYA POWELL FOR BEING ANTI-AMERICAN AND ANTI TEXAN.

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MR. GRIFFITH CENSORED FOR SUCH COMMENTS.

THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENT, MS. DANSKY.

MM-HMM .

THERE BEING NO ONE ELSE DESIRING TO SPEAK.

THIS CONCLUDES THIS CITIZEN COMMENT OF PORTION OF THE AGENDA ON THE TWO A,

[a. Receive a presentation from Kevin Shepherd of Verdunity, Inc. regarding the City's new Fiscal Impact Analysis Tool.]

REGARDING THE CITY'S NEW FISCAL IMPACT ANALYSIS TOOL.

MR. MARTIN.

THANK YOU, MAYOR.

COUNSEL.

UM, SO, UM, YOU'RE NOT GONNA LISTEN TO ME SPEAK TONIGHT.

I'M JUST GONNA INTRODUCE, UH, KEVIN.

SO, UM, AS YOU ALL KNOW, UM, VERITY HAS BEEN CONTRACTED BY US TO, UM, WORK ON, UH, TO BUILD A FISCAL IMPACT ANALYSIS TOOL FOR US TO HELP US EVALUATE NEW DEVELOPMENT.

UM, KEVIN SHEPHERD IS HERE FROM VIRGINITY TONIGHT, HAS COME DOWN FROM DALLAS TO KIND OF PRESENT, UM, THE TOOL ITSELF AND SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WENT INTO IT.

THIS IS ON THE TAIL OF, I BELIEVE, UM, MR. GARY, UH, PRESENTED SOME OF THIS AT YOUR RETREAT.

SO THIS IS TO KIND OF EXPAND ON THAT A LITTLE BIT AND GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE BACKGROUND.

AND WITH THAT, UM, HERE'S MR. SHEPHERD.

THANK YOU.

GOOD EVENING, MAYOR COUNSEL.

GOOD TO SEE YOU GUYS.

UM, AS MARTIN SAID, MY NAME'S KEVIN SHEPHERD, I'M FOUNDER AND CEO OF VERITY.

UM, AND JUST TO RESPECT YOUR TIME, I'M GONNA GET, UH, STRAIGHT INTO THIS, UM, MY BACKGROUND, JUST, UM, A LITTLE BIT, UM, OF HOW WE GOT INTO FISCAL IMPACT ANALYSIS.

I'M A CIVIL ENGINEER BY DEGREE.

WORKED FOR 17 YEARS IN THE NORTH TEXAS, AND, AND EVENTUALLY THE WHOLE TEXAS MARKET DOING MUNICIPAL PAVING, DRAINAGE, WATER, SEWER KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

UM, MY LAST COUPLE YEARS AT HDRI SWITCHED OVER TO BE NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF THE FIRM'S COMMUNITY PLANNING URBAN DESIGN TEAM.

UM, THIS WAS 2008, 2009.

UH, GREAT TIME TO BE DOING, UH, DOING CONSULTING WORK DURING THAT RECESSION.

BUT, UH, BUT WHAT I WAS DOING WAS TRAVELING AROUND THE COUNTRY, WORKING WITH, UH, DIFFERENT CITIES, BIG CITIES, SMALL CITY, RURAL, URBAN, SUBURBAN, UM, LEFT, RIGHT POLITICALLY.

AND, AND WHAT I STARTED TO SEE IS NO MATTER WHERE I WENT, UM, THE CITIES DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY THEY NEEDED TO PAY FOR THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND SO I STARTED TO ASK WHY IN THIS PROS IN THE PROSPEROUS COUNTRY THAT WE HAVE, WHY ARE SO MANY CITIES STRUGGLING TO PAY FOR BASIC SERVICES AND INFRASTRUCTURE LIKE STREETS? UM, THAT ULTIMATELY LED ME TO FOUND VIRGINITY BACK IN 2011.

UM, WE'VE BEEN ON QUITE THE RIDE SINCE.

UM, OUR FIRST FEW YEARS WERE FOCUSED PRIMARILY ON

[00:05:01]

AND NOW YOU CAN KIND OF SEE HOW WE'VE STARTED TO BRANCH OUT ACROSS, UH, THE COUNTRY.

AGAIN, UM, SOMETHING ABOUT FISCAL SUSTAINABILITY AND RESPONSIBILITY IS A, A STICKY, UH, MESSAGE FOR, UH, A LOT OF COMMUNITIES.

UM, I'M GONNA HIT THREE THINGS QUICKLY TONIGHT.

THE FIRST ONE IS JUST TALK ABOUT THE FISCAL IMPACT ANALYSIS TOOL.

UM, AND A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS FOR Y'ALL.

WE WANT TO GET A, A LITTLE BIT OF INPUT FROM, UH, FROM YOU BEFORE WE DO THE, THE FINAL REV REVISIONS AND TURN THAT OVER TO STAFF.

UM, AND THEN, UH, BRENT HAS ALSO ASKED ME TO TALK A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT, UM, SOME OF OUR BROADER CITYWIDE ANALYSIS THAT WE DO, AND HOW TYPICALLY THE CITYWIDE ANALYSIS WILL LINK UP WITH THE, THE DEVELOPMENT SPECIFIC, UH, TOOL THAT WE'VE DONE FOR YOU GUYS.

SO A LOT OF TIMES WE'LL DO THE CITYWIDE ANALYSIS FIRST, AND THEN USE THAT INFORMATION TO FEED INTO, INTO, UH, THE TOOL.

IN YOUR CASE, WE BUILT THE TOOL FIRST, UM, AND YOU'LL BE, UM, STAFF OR US, OR, OR SOMEONE WILL BE OVER TIME, YOU'LL NEED TO INTEGRATE IT AND, AND CALIBRATE IT WITH SOME OF YOUR CITYWIDE BUDGETING OVER THE NEXT COUPLE YEARS.

SO THE TOOL ITSELF IS A SPREADSHEET BASED TOOL.

UM, WE'VE DONE SOME OF THESE IN SOME MORE TECHNICAL SOFTWARE, GIS AND SOME OTHER THINGS, UM, AND HAVE FOUND THAT KEEPING IT SIMPLE AND KEEPING IT IN A SPREADSHEET MAKES IT EASIER FOR STAFF TO TAKE OVER AND, UH, DO THESE ANALYSIS, UM, QUICKLY.

UM, AND IN HOUSE, UM, WHAT IT BASICALLY DOES IS FOR A, ANY PROJECT THAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, IT COULD BE A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY.

IT COULD BE A BIG, UM, A LARGER KIND OF SUBDIVISION OR MIXED USE PROJECT.

IT, IT CAN SCALE UP AND DOWN.

UM, IT LOOKS PRIMARILY, UH, AT PROPERTY TAX.

UH, WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS, UM, KINDA THE PHILOSOPHY BEHIND A LOT OF THE WORK THAT WE DO IS WE NEED TO TRY TO INCREASE THE PROPERTY TAX REVENUE THAT WE GET FROM OUR DEVELOPMENT PATTERN TO TAKE PRESSURE OFF OF SALES TAX AND IN THE INDUSTRIAL, IN Y'ALL'S CASE, UH, THE INDUSTRIAL FEES.

UM, BUT DOING IT IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T AFFECT THE TAX RATE, IT'S JUST THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN AND INCREASING THE VALUE BREAKER, WHICH I'LL GET TO, UH, IN THE SECOND HALF OF MY PRESENTATION.

BUT SOME OF THE INPUTS THAT WE LOOK AT, UM, WE GET THE, OBVIOUSLY THE SIZE OF THE DEVELOPMENT, WE GET INFORMATION ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE, UM, ESPECIALLY THE PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE THAT THE CITY'S GONNA BE TAKING ON.

UM, KINDA A, A KEY CONCEPT OR A KEY THING TO THINK ABOUT WITH ALL OF THIS IS THE DEVELOPER WILL COME IN AND BUILD THIS INFRASTRUCTURE UP FRONT.

THEY'LL PUT THE STREETS AND THE WATER AND THE SEWER IN FOR THE CITY.

THE CITY THEN HAS TO MAINTAIN IT, UM, AND PAY FOR IT OVER TIME.

IE THE TAXPAYERS.

AND SO THAT'S, THAT'S WHAT I SAW WORKING NATIONALLY AND WHAT A LOT OF COMMUNITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH NOW IS THE, AS THOSE MAINTENANCE COSTS AND THOSE RECONSTRUCTION COSTS COME DUE, OUR CITIES DON'T HAVE THE REVENUE TO, TO KEEP UP.

SO THIS WILL LOOK AT, UM, ALL OF THE, THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN ITSELF, WHAT KIND OF UNITS ARE COMING IN THE MIX BETWEEN COMMERCIAL, RESIDENTIAL, UM, THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF UNITS, IF IT'S SINGLE FAMILY, IF IT'S DUPLEX, QUADS, WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

UM, BUT WE ALSO WANT TO GET THAT INFORMATION ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE.

UH, AND THEN WE'VE WORKED WITH, UM, WE'VE GOT THE, UH, COPIES OF THE CITY BUDGET AND HAVE BROKEN THAT DOWN.

SO WE ALSO HAVE SOME SERVICE COSTS THAT ARE ALLOCATED EITHER BY UNIT OR, UM, PER CAPITA OR PER ACRE, DEPENDING, DEPENDING ON THE DIFFERENT COST, UH, OR THE DIFFERENT SERVICE COSTS.

UM, ON THE OUTPUT SIDE, AND, AND, SORRY, LET ME BACK UP.

ON THE, UM, ON THE REVENUE SIDE, UH, THE MOST TRANSPARENT WAY TO DO IT IS TO WORK WITH THE DEVELOPER AND HAVE THEM PROVIDE INFORMATION ON WHAT THEY THINK THE, UM, IF IT'S RESIDENTIAL UNITS, WHAT THEY THINK THEY'RE GONNA BE, UH, SELLING OR RENTING THOSE UNITS FOR.

UH, IF IT'S ON THE COMMERCIAL, UH, WE WANT TO GET, UM, THAT SQUARE FOOTAGE AND THEN WE WILL, WE'LL KIND OF CROSS REFERENCE IT WITH THE, THE MARKET, BUT WE ALSO ASK THE DEVELOPER TO PROVIDE WHAT THEY THINK THE VALUE OF THAT'S GONNA BE, UM, AS WELL.

UM, AND THEN ON THE BACK, UM, ON THE BACK END OF THIS, THERE, THERE'S A LOT OF KIND OF UNDER THE HOOD STUFF IN INSIDE THE TOOL THAT, UM, THAT STAFF CAN LOOK AT.

BUT THE GOAL HERE IS TO GIVE, UH, PLANNING COMMISSION AND CITY COUNCIL A SIMPLE REPORT, A SIMPLE SUMMARY THAT YOU CAN LOOK AT THAT'LL SHOW KIND OF THE, THE UPFRONT, THE INITIAL IMPACTS OF THE PROJECT.

COULD BE NUMBER OF UNITS YOU'RE ADDING, COULD BE, UH, THE, THE LINEAR FEET OR MILES OF STREET OR UTILITIES.

UH, BUT IT'S GONNA GIVE YOU A SUMMARY OF, OF WHAT YOU'RE TAKING ON IN LIABILITIES, WHAT YOU'RE EXPECTING TO GET IN REVENUE, UH, AND THEN THAT NET FISCAL IMPACT, UH, BOTH RIGHT UP FRONT, BUT ALSO OVER THE, THE FIRST LIFE CYCLE OF THAT DEVELOPMENT.

SO SAY, IF YOU WANT TO ESTIMATE YOUR STREETS ARE GONNA LAST 40 YEARS, WILL RUN THAT COST OVER THE 40 YEAR LIFE CYCLE WITH THE GOAL BEING THAT THAT PROJECT OVER 40 YEARS IS GONNA GENERATE ENOUGH REVENUE OVER THAT 40 YEARS TO PAY TO REBUILD THE STREET WHEN IT NEEDS TO BE REBUILT.

UM, SO WE'VE BUILT A FIRST VERSION OF THIS TOOL THAT HAS KIND OF THE BASIC STUFF THAT WE USUALLY DO.

UM, BUT WHAT, UH, WHAT I'D LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU ALL IS IF, UM, IF STAFF WAS GONNA START TO COME TO YOU, UH, WITH THIS SUMMARY,

[00:10:01]

I HAVE A QUESTION FIRST.

SURE.

I, I KNOW YOU SAID THIS IS, UM, FOR THE MOST PART, I GUESS BASED ON PROPERTY TAXES, SO, UM, WHERE WE WOULD LOOK AT A, UM, YOU KNOW, A RESIDENTIAL DEVELOPMENT, UM, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S THE PROPERTY TAXES THERE, BUT DO YOU FACTOR AT ALL JUST THE, UM, YES, SIR.

YEAH, I SKIPPED THAT.

WHAT THAT FAMILY SPENDING THAT WE BRING IN VIA SALES TAX IN OTHER REVENUE STREAMS? YEP.

SO WE DO ADD SALES TAX INTO IT AS WELL.

AND, UM, IF IT WERE AN INDUSTRIAL CASE, WE WOULD LOOK AT THOSE, UH, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT REVENUE AS WELL.

UM, BUT WHAT, WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO IS, UM, THE, THE LEVER, I GUESS, OR THE, THE ADDITIONAL TOOL THAT THAT CITIES HAVE IS THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN ITSELF.

AND SO WHAT YOU PUT ON THAT PARCEL CAN GENERATE MORE PROPERTY TAX REVENUE OR LESS PROPERTY TAX, TAX REVENUE.

AND IN A LOT OF CASES THAT THAT PROPERTY TAX REVENUE PER ACRE IS LOWER AND IT'S NOT ENOUGH.

SO IT PUTS EXTRA PRESSURE ON SALES TAX AND OTHER THINGS TO CLOSE THAT GAP.

SO WE'LL STILL DO SALES TAX, BUT WE REALLY WANT, UH, WE WANT CITIES THAT WE WORK WITH TO FOCUS ON THAT DEVELOPMENT PATTERN AND SEEING IF YOU CAN GET MORE OF THAT PROPERTY TAX PER ACRE, UM, UP, IF THAT MAKES, SO WE, IT, IT'S IN THERE, BUT YOU WANT TO BE THINKING ABOUT THE, HOW THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN IMPACTS THAT PROPERTY TAX AS WELL.

OKAY.

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? MM-HMM .

IT DOES.

THANK YOU, .

I CAN GIVE Y'ALL SOME EXAMPLES IF YOU WOULD .

YEAH, THAT'D BE FINE.

THAT WOULD BE GOOD.

YEAH.

SO THINGS JUST ON, ON A BASE LEVEL, UH, ONE OF THE THINGS WE LOOK AT IS GENERAL FUND PER ACRE.

SO IT'S A VERY SIMPLE METRIC.

YOU TAKE THE CITY'S OVERALL GENERAL FUND, YOU DIVIDE IT BY THE TOTAL ACREAGE OF THE CITY, AND YOU GET A GENERAL FUND PER ACRE NUMBER.

UM, ANY PROJECT YOU HAVE COMING IN, YOU WANNA SEE THAT GENERAL FUND PER ACRE GOING UP.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS WE CAN DO IS SAY, LOOK AT THE, THE INDIVIDUAL PROJECT AND SAY, THIS PROJECT HAS A REVENUE PER ACRE OF, YOU KNOW, 3000 OR WHATEVER.

UM, BUT YOU ALSO WANNA SEE IT CITYWIDE.

SO, UM, KIND OF THAT BALANCE OF HERE'S HOW THE PROJECT ITSELF DOES, BUT ALSO HERE'S THE IMPACT ON THE OVERALL, UM, YOU KNOW, THE BIG OVERALL CITY METRICS.

SO GENERAL FUND PER ACRE IS ONE ALSO PER CAPITA PER HOUSEHOLD.

SOME OF THE ONES THAT YOU SEE ON HERE ARE THE, THE PRETTY TYPICAL ONES.

UM, SOME CITIES ARE, UM, YOU KNOW, HAVE A GOAL OF DIVERSIFYING THEIR HOUSING MIX, AND SO THEY WANNA SEE THIS PROJECT IS GONNA BRING IN, YOU KNOW, A CERTAIN KIND OF ADDITIONAL TYPE OF UNITS, YOU KNOW, DUPLEX OR QUADS OR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER THAT, SO, SO WE CAN CONNECT SOME OF THOSE, UM, THOSE, THOSE GOALS EITHER FROM YOUR COMP PLAN OR YOUR STRATEGIC PLAN OR THINGS LIKE THAT AS WELL.

BUT IT'S, WHICH WE WILL DO, I THINK IT'S MORE THE, THE FISCAL NUMBERS SPECIFICALLY THAT, THAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT IF THERE'S ANY, THERE'S ANYTHING THAT YOU'VE EVER WONDERED ABOUT OF LIKE, IS THIS PROJECT GOOD FINANCIALLY FOR THE CITY? UM, IS THERE A NUMBER OR SOMETHING THAT YOU'VE HAD IN YOUR HEAD THAT YOU WISH YOU, THAT YOU WISH YOU HAD THAT YOU HAVEN'T HAD IN THE PAST? I WOULDN'T BE INTERESTED IN SEEING HOW MUCH A, UM, HIGHER PRICED HOME, THE IMPACT THAT IT WOULD HAVE.

OKAY.

WE, UH, WITH OUR CITYWIDE ANALYSIS, WE GET THAT, UH, THAT QUESTION A LOT OF WHAT, WHAT'S THE VALUE OF AN AVERAGE HOME THAT, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE AVERAGE HOME VALUE HAVE TO BE TO MAKE THE CITY PENCIL OUT? UM, IT'S A VERY LOADED QUESTION, VERY COMPLICATED QUESTION, BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE VALUE OF THE HOME ITSELF, IT'S ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE LOT.

IT'S ABOUT THE WIDTH OF THE STREET MM-HMM .

UM, YOU KNOW, IT'S A LOT ABOUT THE CITY'S OTHER REVENUE STREAMS IN TERMS OF PROPERTY TAX, SALES TAX, UM, ET CETERA.

UM, YOU KNOW, I, I THINK SO WE COULD CERTAINLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S THE AVERAGE HOME VALUE OR THE AVERAGE RESIDENTIAL VALUE FOR THAT DEVELOPMENT, AND, YOU KNOW, AND COMPARE THAT TO YOUR, TO YOUR CITYWIDE NUMBER.

UM, EASY TO DO ANYTHING ELSE.

I HAVE A QUESTION.

SO HOW CAN WE HAVE A REPORT FOR THE COUNCIL THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT APPEAR TO THEM, NOR TO THE CITIZENS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO LEAD ANY ONE DIRECTION? RIGHT? BECAUSE PART OF THE CONVERSATIONS, UM, I'M SURE THAT YOU AND BRAND HAVE HAD THROUGH, THROUGH THIS AND WITH OTHER CITIES IS THAT, UM, SOME OF OUR COMMERCIAL PROPERTY IS GONNA BE LESS EXPENSIVE FOR US TO SERVE, RIGHT? WHEREAS RESIDENTIAL HOMES ARE MORE EXPENSIVE FOR US TO SERVE MM-HMM .

SO HOW CAN WE LAY THAT OUT UP FRONT TO SHOW THAT WE'RE NOT TRYING TO VALUE WAREHOUSES OVER RESIDENTIAL, AND WE'RE NOT TRYING TO VALUE RESIDENTIAL OVER WAREHOUSES, WE'RE JUST TRYING TO FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE.

SO I THINK IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT FOR THE COUNCIL TO UNDERSTAND THAT, AND HOW CAN WE GET A BALANCED REPORT SO THEY CAN MAKE BETTER DECISIONS BASED

[00:15:01]

SURE.

SURE.

GREAT QUESTION.

UM, A LOT OF THE, UM, THE CITYWIDE WORK THAT WE DO, UM, WHETHER IT'S A STANDALONE FISCAL ANALYSIS OR A LOT OF TIMES NOW WE'RE DOING IT AS PART OF COMP PLANS AND STUFF LIKE THAT, BUT IT'S HAVING MORE OF A COMMUNITY CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT, WHAT I CALL THE RESOURCE GAP, UM, AND, AND BEING TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT THAT GAP IS AND THE DIFFERENT WAYS TO, UH, DIFFERENT WAYS TO CLOSE IT.

AND I ACTUALLY, IT MIGHT BE, IT MIGHT BE GOOD FOR ME TO GO THROUGH THE SECOND PART, AND THEN WE CAN COME BACK AND TALK ABOUT HOW THE TOOL FITS IN WITH THAT.

IF Y'ALL WANT TO DO, IF Y'ALL WANNA DO THAT, THAT'S FINE.

THAT, OKAY.

UM, SO, UH, JUST TALKING ABOUT THIS, RIGHT? EVERY, I WOULD ARGUE EVERY CITY OR MOST CITIES ACROSS THIS COUNTRY HAVE SOME VERSION OF A RESOURCE GAP, WHICH IS BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS MANY NEEDS IN OUR CITY AND WE HAVE THIS MUCH MONEY TO WORK WITH.

UM, AND A LOT OF TIMES IF YOU DIG A LITTLE BIT, A LITTLE BIT DEEPER, IT USUALLY GETS INTO INFRASTRUCTURE, RIGHT? UM, SO THIS IS, UH, THIS IS A CHART THAT WE USE A LOT TO SHOW, TO EXPLAIN KIND OF THE, THE WHAT CHUCK MARONE FROM STRONG TOWNS CALLS THE SUBURBAN EXPERIMENT.

WHAT I'LL JUST SAW, THE, WHAT I'LL JUST CALL THE POST WORLD WAR II DEVELOPMENT PATTERN OF THE WAY THAT A LOT OF OUR CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE HAVE GROWN.

UM, YOU START ON THE LEFT, YOU HAVE A SMALL POPULATION, YOU HAVE AN OLD PART OF TOWN, IT AGES A LITTLE BIT, AND THEN YOU GET IN THE MIDDLE WHERE THE GROWTH COMES TO YOUR COMMUNITY.

DEVELOPERS COME IN, THEY BUILD ALL THE STREETS, THE WATER SEWER, THE HOME, THE COMMERCIAL, THE PARKS, THE LIBRARIES, ALL THE STUFF OVER ABOUT TWO DECADES TYPICALLY.

UM, AND SO YOU'LL SEE THE AVERAGE AGE OF YOUR INFRASTRUCTURE GO DOWN, YOU DRIVE AROUND TOWN AND EVERYTHING KIND OF LOOKS PRETTY NEW, UM, AND YOUR POPULATION IS GROWING.

THAT, THAT IN THE MIDDLE, UM, IS WHERE A LOT OF OUR NEWER, YOU KNOW, SECOND, THIRD, FOURTH RING SUBURBS ARE WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE BEST PLACE TO LIVE, WORK, PLAY, THAT THEY'RE BRAND NEW.

UM, BUT AS YOU PUSH TO THE RIGHT OF THIS, UH, STREETS WILL TYPICALLY LAST YOU 30, 40, 50 YEARS.

NEWER ONES WILL LAST A LITTLE BIT LONGER, BUT A LOT OF THE STREETS THAT WERE BUILT IN THE SIXTIES AND SEVENTIES AND EIGHTIES, YOU'RE LUCKY IF YOU GET 30 YEARS OUT OF 'EM, RIGHT? YOU PUSH TO THE RIGHT OF THIS, YOU START TO RUN OUT OF LAND TO DEVELOP, UH, YOUR POPULATION SLOWS DOWN ALL OF THE REVENUE FROM NEW DEVELOPMENT SLOWS DOWN.

SO WHETHER IT'S DEVELOPMENT FEES, BUILDING PERMITS, WHATEVER, THAT, THAT REVENUE FLATTENS OUT.

UM, AND THEN ALL OF THAT INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WAS PUT IN 30 OR 40 OR 50 YEARS EARLIER BY DEVELOPERS NOW IS ON THE CITY TO MAINTAIN IT.

YOU GUYS ARE SQUARELY IN THAT SPOT RIGHT NOW.

RIGHT? AND THIS IS, THIS IS DETROIT.

THIS IS FERGUSON, MISSOURI.

THIS IS JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI.

THIS IS FLINT, MICHIGAN, THIS IS SHREVEPORT, THIS IS MEMPHIS.

I CAN GO ON AND ON ABOUT A LOT OF PLACES THAT ARE AT THE FAR RIGHT PART OF THAT, UM, IT'S NOT ABOUT PENSIONS, THAT, THAT PENSIONS ARE PART OF IT, BUT IT'S REALLY THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT, THAT'S GETTING CITIES UPSIDE DOWN.

SO IF YOU HAVE A GAP, HOW DO YOU CLOSE IT? NUMBER ONE, YOU CAN RAISE TAXES AND FEES.

NOBODY LIKES THAT OPTION.

UM, I WOULD ARGUE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD THAT OPTION.

UH, THE SECOND OPTION IS YOU CUT SERVICES TO ALIGN WITH WHAT, UH, WHAT REVENUE YOU HAVE.

THAT'S WHAT MOST CITIES DO TODAY.

WHEN YOU GUYS DO BUDGETING, YOU HAVE THIS MUCH COMING IN, AND THAT'S WHAT YOU MATCH YOUR SERVICES.

AND THEN ANYTHING YOU CAN'T DO GETS DEFERRED TO A FUTURE YEAR.

THE PROBLEM WAS, IS WHEN YOU DEFER, DEFER, DEFER, EVENTUALLY THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS START TO DECLINE AND YOU LOSE POPULATION, RIGHT? TEXAS IS BLESSED RIGHT NOW.

'CAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE, THERE'S A LOT OF MADE PEOPLE COMING FROM EAST AND WEST COAST.

THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE COMING TO TEXAS THAT THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS ARE STARTING TO FALL APART, AND THEY STILL HAVE THE WEALTH AND THE MEANS TO MOVE.

SO THEY'RE COMING HERE, BUT THEN THEY GET HERE AND REALIZE, OH, WE HAVE A .

WE HAVE A LOT OF COMMUNITIES IN TEXAS THAT ARE STARTING TO HAVE THAT SAME CYCLE.

UM, SO THE ANSWER OR WHAT WE TRY TO PROPOSE IS HOW CAN WE DEVELOP IN A DIFFERENT WAY? HOW CAN YOU ALIGN YOUR DEVELOPMENT AND YOUR SERVICES SO THAT IT'S, UH, ALIGNED WITH WHAT YOUR RESIDENTS ARE WILLING AND ABLE TO PAY? AND SO WE, WE, WE GO STRAIGHT TO THE TAX RATE.

WE GO TAKE STRAIGHT TO OUR UTILITY RATES.

UM, AND THOSE, THOSE ARE CERTAINLY LEVERS THAT WE CAN USE.

BUT THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN ITSELF CAN ACTUALLY HELP YOU GENERATE MORE TAX REVENUE, UM, AS WELL WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE YOUR TAX RATE.

UM, WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO ALIGN THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN, IT REQUIRES TRADE OFFS.

YOU CAN'T HAVE A RESIDENT, CAN'T HAVE, AND THIS IS A REALLY POWERFUL GRAPHIC FOR US IN A LOT OF THE WORK THAT WE DO.

A RESIDENT CANNOT HAVE STABLE, PREDICTABLE SERVICES.

SO IF THEY WANT POLICE AND FIRE TO BE THERE ON TIME, THEY WANT THEIR ROADS TO LOOK GOOD.

NO POTHOLES.

THEY WANT THEIR WATER AND SEWER TO WORK.

YOU CAN'T HAVE STABLE SERVICES, LOW DENSITY AND LOW TAXES, ALL THREE TOGETHER.

THE MATH JUST DOES NOT WORK.

AND SO YOU CAN HAVE TRADE OFFS.

UM, AND A LOT OF WHAT WE GET INTO WHEN WE START TALKING ABOUT DENSITY, UM, IF YOU WANT LOW TAXES AND YOU WANT STABLE SERVICES, A LITTLE BIT OF DENSITY IN THE RIGHT PLACE IS THE WAY TO GET THERE.

UM, AND TALKING ABOUT IT THROUGH THE FISCAL LENS IS A REALLY POWERFUL WAY TO GET THERE.

YOU'RE, YOU'RE BASICALLY JUST SAYING, HOW ARE WE THE CITY GONNA PAY FOR IT? HOW ARE YOU THE RESIDENT GONNA PAY FOR IT? AND YOU KIND OF WORK, UH, THROUGH THE DEVELOPMENT, UM, FISCAL IMPACT AMOUNT ANALYSIS TOOL, YOU CAN WORK WITH DEVELOPERS TO KIND OF TWEAK THINGS TO CLOSE THAT GAP.

[00:20:01]

WE, WE, IN OUR CITIES, WE TALK ABOUT DENSITY, WE TALK ABOUT AFFORDABLE HOUSING, WE TALK ABOUT TRAFFIC, WE TALK ABOUT, UM, PROPERTY RIGHTS.

WE TALK ABOUT A LOT OF VERY COMPLICATED THINGS.

UM, BUT EVERY ONE OF THOSE CAN BE FRAMED THROUGH WHAT IS IT GENERATING FOR OUR CITY AND REVENUE, AND WHAT DOES IT COST OUR CITY TO PAY FOR OR TO SERVE? AND THEN WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU, THE TAXPAYER, IN TERMS OF FINDING THAT SWEET SPOT THAT YOU CAN GET GOOD SERVICES FOR WHAT YOU'RE WILLING AND ABLE TO PAY FOR.

WE HAVE NOT HAD THAT CONVERSATION FOR THE LAST 50, 50 YEARS.

IT'S JUST BEEN ABOUT, WE NEED MORE LANES 'CAUSE TRAFFIC'S BAD, OR WE NEED WIDER LANES FOR FIRE.

OR, YOU KNOW, WE NEED, UH, BIGGER LOTS BECAUSE WE THINK THAT'S, UH, BECAUSE WE THINK THAT'S GONNA GONNA BRING MORE VALUE, UH, TO OUR COMMUNITY.

BACK TO, UH, THE MAYOR'S QUESTION, LARGE LOTS DON'T NECESSARILY WORK FOR A CITY.

UM, YOU KNOW, YOU GET TO, IT'S GOTTA BE A CERTAIN VALUE.

UM, AND A LOT OF TIMES IT'S BIGGER.

IT'S 600, 700,000 BEFORE THOSE LARGER LOTS SUBURBAN STYLE HOMES START TO PAY FOR EACH OTHER.

I I, I WILL SAY SOMETIMES HERE, LIKE, UH, , WE'VE BEEN GETTING, UH, WE'VE BASICALLY BEEN GETTING A CADILLAC AND PAYING FOR A YUGO OR A FORD FOCUS, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER, WHATEVER, UH, WHATEVER CAR YOU WANNA PLUG IN THERE.

BUT WE'VE BEEN GETTING THE A PLUS QUALITY OF LIFE AND HAVEN'T BEEN PAYING THE TRUE COST OF IT.

AND THAT'S A BIG RESET THAT'S GOTTA HAPPEN ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY AND IN EVERY CITY.

AND IT'S, IT'S VERY HARD.

UH, BUT THE SOONER OUR CITIES CAN BE TRANSPARENT ABOUT WHAT WE'RE UP AGAINST, UM, THEN WE CAN START TO KIND OF HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS TO CLOSE THE GAP.

AND THAT'S WHAT ALL THAT, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HERE TONIGHT, TONIGHT TO TALK ABOUT.

SO THE CITYWIDE LAND USE FISCAL ANALYSIS, UM, JUST A COUPLE OF HIGHLIGHTS OF THAT.

UM, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE LOOK AT IS THIS, THE, THE POPULATION DENSITY TREND.

UM, THIS SHOWS YOUR, YOUR POPULATION GROWTH OVER TIME, YOUR LAND AREA GROWTH OVER TIME, AND YOUR, UM, YOUR DENSITY.

UM, THIS ONE, UH, IS REALLY THE ONE THAT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THOUGH.

THIS, UM, THIS SHOWS BAY TOWN'S ANNEXATION OVER TIME.

YOU CAN SEE KIND OF IN THAT LIGHT, UH, OR THE DARKER PURPLE, THE BLUISH PURPLE RIGHT THERE IN THE, IN THE MIDDLE.

THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL PART OF THE CITY, 19 IN THE 1940S, 1950S.

AND THEN YOU CAN SEE ALL THE EXTRA STUFF THAT AFTER THAT, YOU KNOW, WAS ANNEXED.

UM, BUT WHEN YOU GROW OUTWARD LIKE THAT, YOU'RE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING? YOU'RE ADDING ROADS, WATER, SEWER, UM, AND, AND THAT'S ADDING A LOT OF COST TO THE CITY TO TAKE ON.

BUT TYPICALLY WE'RE GROWING OUTWARD IN A LOWER DENSITY PATTERN THAT, UM, THAT DOESN'T, UH, ALWAYS PAY FOR THAT.

SO IN BAY TOWN'S CASE, FROM 1950 TO 2020, OVER 70 YEARS, YOUR, YOUR SERVICE AREA GREW BY A LITTLE, UH, ALMOST FIVE TIMES.

YOUR POPULATION ONLY GREW BY 3.7.

SO BASICALLY THAT MEANS YOU'RE TAKING ON MORE STUFF AND YOU'RE LOWERING THE DENSITY, UH, WHICH MEANS YOU'RE, YOU'RE RAISING THAT COST PER HOUSEHOLD, UH, TO PAY FOR THINGS.

UM, SO HOW DO YOU CLOSE THIS GAP? ONE OF THE THINGS IS LOOK INSIDE YOUR DEVELOPMENT PATTERN, UM, WHERE YOU HAVE, UH, SERVICES ANYWHERE YOU HAVE VACANT LOTS, GET A BUILDING ON IT.

ANYWHERE YOU'VE GOT LARGE LOTS THAT HAVE ROOM, PUT A SECOND BUILDING ON IT.

UM, ANYWHERE YOU HAVE ONE STORY, PUT TWO STORIES ON IT.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

NEW YORK CITY, ALL OF TEXAS, JUST TO BE CLEAR.

UH, BUT IF, IF EVERY CITY IN TEXAS JUST JUST BUILT TWO STORIES WE WOULD PENCIL, I, WE'VE NEVER DONE THAT MATH, BUT I, I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT IF ALL WE DID WAS TWO STORY EVERYWHERE WE WOULD PENCIL OUT, IT'S THE SPREAD OUT ONE STORY.

BIG PARKING LOT STUFF THAT REALLY SUCKS THE VALUE OUT OF OUR PLACES.

UM, BUDGET SNAPSHOT, I MENTIONED GENERAL FUND PER ACRE.

UM, IF YOU LOOK AT, UH, IN GENERAL FUND PER CAPITA, IF YOU LOOK AT IN THE TABLE IN THE, THE TOP RIGHT THERE, UM, IF YOU LOOK AT THOSE, THOSE THREE BOTTOM ROWS, THAT'S YOUR GENERAL F GENERAL FUND PER CAPITA PER HOUSEHOLD AND PER ACRE OVER THE LAST, UH, COUPLE YEARS, YOU CAN SEE HOW THAT GENERAL FUND PER CAPITA HAS BEEN CREEPING UP.

THE GENERAL FUND PER HOUSEHOLD IS CREEPING UP.

UM, THE GENERAL FUND PER ACRE IS ALSO GOING UP, WHICH IS A, WHICH IS A GOOD THING.

BUT I DON'T KNOW, UH, I THINK THAT THAT HAS MAYBE A LITTLE BIT MORE TO DO WITH THE INDUSTRIAL AGREEMENTS, UH, THAN THE DEVELOPMENT PATTERN ITSELF.

IF YOU LOOK ON THE LEFT SIDE, THE, THE BAR CHART, THE, UM, THE BIGGEST THING TO JUST PUT ON YOUR RADAR IF IT'S NOT ALREADY, UM, YOU KNOW, ALMOST 50% OF YOUR GENERAL FUND COMES FROM THOSE INDUSTRIAL AGREEMENTS MM-HMM .

AND THERE ARE CONVERSATIONS IN AUSTIN RIGHT NOW THAT MIGHT TAKE YOUR ABILITY TO GET THOSE REVENUES AWAY.

AND SO IN GROWING COMMUNITIES, I'M USUALLY HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE REVENUE THAT THEY GET FROM DEVELOPMENT AND SAYING THAT DEVELOPMENT AS YOU, AS YOU BUILD OUT YOUR CITY, WHAT YOU BUILD ON THE GROUND HAS TO GENERATE PROPERTY TAX AND SALES TAX TO REPLACE THAT DEVELOPMENT FOR YOUR REVENUE.

OVER TIME.

IN YOUR CASE, YOU NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT THE WHAT IF SCENARIO OF WHAT IF THOSE INDUSTRIAL, UH, TAXES GO AWAY.

UM, HOPEFULLY

[00:25:01]

SO, UM, THE OTHER THING THAT, THAT WE DO, UM, OR ANOTHER PART OF THIS FISCAL ANALYSIS THAT WE DO IS THE REVENUE PER ACRE MAPPING.

UM, ON THE LEFT IS ONE THAT WE DID FOR DALLAS COUNTY A COUPLE YEARS AGO.

UM, THE GREENER THE BARS, THE HIGHER THE BARS IS, THE HIGHER THE, THE VALUE PER ACRE.

UM, YOU CAN SEE WHERE DOWNTOWN DALLAS IS.

BUT WHAT I LIKE TO POINT OUT WITH THAT ONE IS, IS LOOK AT THE FIRST AND THE SECOND RING AND THE THIRD RING SUBURBS OF THAT.

AND YOU CAN JUST SEE THE MASSIVE DIFFERENCE OF THE, THE VALUE THAT DALLAS GENERATES FOR THAT REGION.

UM, THEN ON THE RIGHT YOU CAN SEE WHAT BAY TOWN'S ASSESSED VALUE PER ACRE LOOKS LIKE.

UM, WHEN WE GO INTO OUR FISCAL ANALYSIS THOUGH, UM, WE DIG DEEPER THAN JUST THE VALUE PER ACRE.

UM, THIS IS ONE FROM BROWNSVILLE THAT WE DID A FEW YEARS AGO.

UM, I LIKE TO, I LIKE TO KEEP BROWNSVILLE IN HERE, UH, A LITTLE BIT FOR EFFECT 'CAUSE IT'S THE MOST DRAMATIC ONE WE'VE EVER DONE.

UM, BUT WHAT WE DO IS WE DON'T JUST LOOK AT THE ASSESSED VALUE PER ACRE, WE ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE TAX REVENUE PER ACRE THAT YOU'RE GETTING.

SO WE ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE ACTUAL REVENUE THAT THE CITY IS GETTING, THEN WE TAKE YOUR GENERAL FUND SERVICE COSTS AND WE ALLOCATE THOSE BACK TO, TO PARCELS AS WELL.

SO FOR EVERY PROPERTY IN THE CITY, YOU BASICALLY GET WHAT SOME PEOPLE WILL CALL A PROFIT AND LOSS MAP, OR SOME PEOPLE CALL A RED GREEN MAP, BUT SOME PROPERTIES IN YOUR CITY ARE GONNA MAKE MONEY AND SOME PROPERTIES ARE GONNA LOSE MONEY.

AND TO YOUR POINT EARLIER, YES, IT IS A LITTLE BIT RESIDENTIAL COMMERCIAL, BUT IT'S MORE NUANCED THAN THAT.

IT'S ALSO HAS TO DO WITH THE SIZE OF THE LOTS AND WHAT YOU'RE BUILDING WHERE.

SO IN THIS CASE, THIS IS THEIR, UH, THIS IS BROWNSVILLE'S CURRENT BUDGET.

UM, AND ON THIS ONE WE DID A, WE DID AN ROI APPROACH.

SO FOR EVERY DOLLAR SPENT, UM, THIS IS WHAT THEY GET BACK.

SO IF IT'S GREEN, IT'S POSITIVE.

IF IT'S RED, IT'S LOSING MONEY.

BUT AS WE WENT THROUGH THIS ONE, UH, BROWNSVILLE JUST TO REBUILD THE STREETS THAT THEY HAD AT THAT TIME WAS ALMOST $1.3 BILLION CAME OUT TO $66 MILLION A YEAR, THEY WERE SPENDING THREE.

UM, AND I HAVE A LOT OF STORIES LIKE THAT.

THAT'S HOW BIG SOME OF OUR GAPS ARE.

SO WHEN WE TAKE THOSE, AND THIS FOR BROWNSVILLE WAS JUST STREETS.

SOME CITIES WILL DO OTHER UNFUNDED THINGS.

SO IF YOU WANT MORE FOR PARKS, IF YOU WANT MORE FOR POLICE OR WHATEVER, ANYTHING THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THAT'S UNFUNDED, WE CAN ADD IT IN.

IN BROWNSVILLE'S CASE, WE ADDED THE STREETS IN AND THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

SO HERE'S WHAT THEY HAVE AND HERE'S WHAT THEY NEED.

AND SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS, THEN THERE'S A VERY DIFFERENT STORY OF LIKE, OKAY, WHAT PLACES STILL STAY GREEN EVEN WHEN WE LOAD MORE COSTS IN? UM, AND SO WE CAN LOOK UNDER THE HOOD, WE CAN LOOK AT AT, UH, WE CAN SLICE AND DICE THIS BY LOT SIZE BY ZONING DISTRICT, BY GEOGRAPHIC AREA, BY NEIGHBORHOOD.

AND THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT YOU CAN TAKE OUT FROM THIS OF HOW DO THESE DIFFERENT PATTERNS PERFORM JUST ON THE REVENUE SIDE, UM, IN THE NET PER ACRE WITH BUDGET LOADED, AND THEN WHEN YOU, WHEN YOU UN UH, LOAD IN UNFUNDED COSTS OR DEFERRED COSTS AS WELL.

UM, I DON'T, I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY OF THESE THAT WE'VE DONE, UM, ACROSS TEXAS AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY AT THIS POINT.

UM, A LOT .

UH, THESE ARE SOME OF THE COMMON CHARACTERISTICS THAT WE SEE, UM, PRETTY MUCH EVERYWHERE.

IF YOU LOOK THERE ON THE, THE LEFT, UM, THE HIGH RATIO OF BUILDING FOOTPRINT TO LOT SIZE, THE MORE BUILDING YOU PUT ON A LOT, THE MORE VALUE PER ACRE YOU'RE GONNA GET OUT OF IT.

UM, MULTI-STORY STRUCTURES MORE VERTICAL.

YOU GO THE MORE VALUE PER ACRE YOU'RE GONNA GET.

UM, NARROW LOT FRONTAGE.

UM, IF YOU HAVE A BIG LOT, IT'S BETTER FOR IT TO BE NARROW AND DEEP THAN IT FOR BE, THAN FOR IT TO BE SHALLOW AND WIDE.

THE REASON FOR THAT IS YOU'RE, YOU'RE TAKING UP MORE FRONTAGE OF THAT STREET FOR THAT ONE LOT OR MORE FEET OF WATERLINE FOR THAT ONE LOT, RIGHT? UM, SO IF YOU HAVE NARROWER LOTS, YOU PUT MORE LOTS ON THAT STREET, YOU CAN GET MORE RETURN BACK TO PAY FOR THAT STREET.

UM, SMALLER LOTS IN GENERAL.

AND THEN THE NARROWER STREETS IN A GRID PATTERN, THE OLD TRADITIONAL GRID PATTERN OF, OF NEIGHBORHOODS VERSUS THE SUBURBAN, WHAT I'LL CALL THE LOOPS AND LOLLIPOPS.

UM, CUL-DE-SACS ARE GREAT TO LIVE ON.

THEY'RE THE MOST INEFFICIENT THING FOR A CITY TO SERVE.

IT'S WHEN YOU START TO LOOK AT POLICE AND FIRE AND TRASH AND WATER, EVERYTHING.

CUL-DE-SACS ARE VERY, VERY EXPENSIVE.

UM, UM, APPLICATIONS OF THIS, UM, JUST AS, AS AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL, JUST BEING A GENERAL, KIND OF A GENERAL COMMON LANGUAGE FOR THE COMMUNITY TO TALK ABOUT THE RESOURCE GAP AND HOW WE WANNA WORK TOGETHER TO CLOSE IT, HOW YOU WANNA PARTNER WITH DEVELOPERS, NONPROFITS TO CLOSE IT.

UM, IF YOU DIG UNDER THAT A LITTLE BIT, YOU CAN GET INTO ZONING CODES, YOU CAN GET INTO CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT, UH, PLANS AND, AND PROJECT PRIORITIZATION.

SO IT'S JUST A, ANOTHER DATA POINT THERE.

UH, AND THEN KIND OF CIRCLING BACK TO WHERE WE STARTED THIS,

[00:30:01]

BUT YOU, YOU CAN KIND OF MARRY THE BIG PICTURE OF THE CITY UP WITH THE INDIVIDUAL PROJECTS AND, AND SYNC THOSE UP TOGETHER A LITTLE BIT BETTER.

UM, SO THAT'S, UH, THAT'S ALL THAT I WANTED TO GET TO, BUT, SO LET ME COME BACK TO THE QUESTION THERE ABOUT THE, UM, THE TOOL AND THE RESIDENTIAL COMMERCIAL SPLIT.

UM, I THINK IT'S, UH, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR, YOUR BUILT PATTERN IS OR WHAT YOUR SPLIT BETWEEN COMMERCIAL AND RESIDENTIAL IS RIGHT NOW.

IF IT'S 30 70 OR 60 40, UM, WHATEVER THAT SPLIT IS.

AND THEN UNDERSTAND YOUR, UH, YOUR BUDGET AND YOUR COSTS FOR THOSE DIFFERENT TYPES.

A LOT OF, UM, A LOT OF CITIES WILL JUST, THEY'VE HEARD THE TALK AND THEY SAY, OH, RESIDENTIAL IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

COMMERCIAL'S CHEAPER, NOT ALWAYS MOST OF THE TIME, BUT NOT ALWAYS.

UM, COMMERCIAL ALSO USUALLY HAS A BOOST BECAUSE WE CHARGE THEM HIGHER PROPERTY TAX RATES THAN, UM, THAN THE RESIDENTIAL.

UM, BUT YOU REALLY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND LIKE THE WHOLE PICTURE.

UM, SOME PLACES WILL LOOK AT IT AND SAY, WELL, WE JUST WANT MORE COMMERCIAL.

WELL COMMERCIAL, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE DENSITY, IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE IN THE AREA, YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET THE COMMERCIAL.

SO TO JUST SAY, WE WANT MORE COMMERCIAL AND MORE SALES TAX TO CLOSE THE GAP WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THE BIGGER PICTURE IS HARD.

SO THAT'S UNDERSTANDING ALL OF THOSE METRICS TOGETHER, YOU KNOW, IS YOUR POPULATION DENSITY INCREASING OR DECREASING? IS YOUR SPLIT BETWEEN RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL? YOU KNOW, WHICH WAY IS IT GOING? UM, INSIDE EACH ONE OF THOSE CATEGORIES, HOW DIVERSE ARE YOU BETWEEN SMALL, SMALL COMMERCIAL, BIG COMMERCIAL, THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF COMMERCIAL INDUSTRIAL.

SAME THING ON RESIDENTIAL.

HOW DIVERSE ARE YOU BETWEEN SINGLE FA, SMALL SINGLE FAMILY, LARGE SINGLE FAMILY, UM, RENTALS, UM, ALL OF THE MISS MISSING METAL HOUSING IN BETWEEN.

UM, AND ALL OF THOSE CAN CONNECT BACK TO NUMBERS OR WHAT IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES THIS DO FOR COST? WHAT DOES THIS DO FOR REVENUES, UH, FOR THE CITY? SO, UM, IN A PERFECT WORLD, WE WOULD HAVE THAT CITYWIDE INFORMATION TOO.

AND THEN WE CAN CONNECT THAT THE, THE SUMMARY REPORT THAT YOU ALL GET TO YOUR CITYWIDE METRICS, BUT ALSO WITH THE PROJECT METRICS.

BECAUSE, UH, LAST THING I, I GUESS I COULD SAY THERE IS IF, IF YOUR CITY'S WAY UPSIDE DOWN AND A DEVELOPMENT COMES IN AND IT MIGHT PENCIL FOR THAT DEVELOPMENT, BUT IT DOESN'T DO MUCH MORE THAN THAT, HOW MUCH IS THAT MOVING THE NEEDLE FOR YOU? RIGHT? SO IT'S IN, WHEN YOU'RE IN REDEVELOPMENT CONTEXT, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT EVERY PROJECT, UM, BEING POSITIVE FOR THAT ONE PROJECT, IT'S, YOU NEED EVERY PROJECT TO ACTUALLY HAVE SOME MARGINS SO THAT YOU CAN CATCH UP ON OTHER THINGS.

SO WITH THAT, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS FOR ME, OR INPUT FOR THE TOOL? COUNCILMAN POWELL.

UM, I APPRECIATE YOU PRESENTING THIS.

UH, YOU HAD ME AT SPREADSHEET , THEY ALL LAUGH BECAUSE THEY KNOW I LOVE SPREADSHEETS, BUT, UH, UM, I THINK, UM, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE FROM IT, UM, AND, AND I THINK I WAS ALREADY THINKING ALONG THE LINES OF WHAT MR. REYNOLDS ASKED, JUST BECAUSE I THINK, I THINK JUST BASED ON HOW THE TOOL BUILDS OUT AND THE TYPES OF DEVELOPMENT, IF WE JUST DRAW A LINE AND SAY ABOVE THIS IS A YES AND BELOW THIS IS A NO.

I MEAN, IT'S GONNA BE HARD TO POTENTIALLY HARD TO EVER BUILD A SINGLE FAMILY HOME AGAIN.

UM, SO, AND, AND I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD DO THAT.

SURE.

SO I THINK, UM, I THINK I'D LIKE TO SEE, I MEAN, YOU HAVE THE, THE NUMBERS OF REVENUE PER ACRE AND THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT I THINK AS WE USE THIS OVER TIME, I THINK THE TREND LINE IS GONNA BE JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THAT SNAPSHOT, RIGHT? MM-HMM .

SO I MEAN, I THINK TO YOUR POINT OF WE NEED, WE NEED A MIX.

UM, YOU KNOW, IF WE APPROVE SOME RETAIL COMMERCIAL AND THEN THERE'S SOME SINGLE FAMILY RESIDENTIAL, YES, IT MAY BE LESS, YOU KNOW, REVENUE PER ACRE, BUT WE'RE STILL KIND OF TRENDING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION MM-HMM .

SO I THINK I'D LIKE TO SEE AS A PART OF IT, KIND OF THOSE TRENDS OVER TIME.

SURE.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S SOMETHING YOU CAN DO NOW OR WE JUST HAVE TO START BUILDING OUT AS WE MOVE TOWARDS THE FUTURE.

UM, I AM KIND OF CURIOUS, UH, YOU TALKED, YOU, YOU MENTIONED AUSTIN, SO I HAD A QUESTION.

UM, 'CAUSE I KNOW THERE'S SOME LEGISLATION AROUND, UM, THE SIZE OF LOTS LIKE TINY HOMES MM-HMM .

AND THAT TYPE THING.

SO I MEAN, JUST IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, , HOW DO TINY HOMES, UH, LOOK IN THIS ANALYSIS? I, SO, UM, THERE'S A, THERE'S A GROUP TEXAS 2036, UH, RIGHT NOW THAT'S DOING, UM, THERE'S A GROUP OF FOLKS IN, IN, UM, IN THE LEGISLATURE THAT HAVE ASKED THEM TO KIND OF LOOK INTO THIS WHOLE AFFORDABLE

[00:35:01]

AND, UM, THEY'VE GOT, UM, THEY REACHED OUT TO, TO MYSELF AND A FEW OTHERS THAT ARE DOING THIS WORK AND HAD US GIVE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF OUR STUDIES THAT WE'VE DONE.

AND THEN THEY'RE DOING SOME OF THEIR OWN WORK THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE THAT DONE HERE IN THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS.

I THINK ABOUT, I, I THINK, BUT IT'S A REALLY, IT'S A REALLY INTERESTING CONVERSATION BECAUSE IN THE SIMPLEST WAY FOR TO KEEP HOUSING AFFORDABLE, YOU NEED MORE SUPPLY.

WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SUPPLY IN, IN TEXAS.

AND SO WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH SUPPLY, IT DRIVES THE PRICE OF WHAT YOU HAVE LEFT UP.

UM, I, IN A LONGER TALK, I TALK ABOUT MY, MY DAD WORKED FOR SHELL.

WE LIVED ALL OVER THE PLACE, BUT WE LIVED IN SAN BERNARDINO, CALIFORNIA WHEN, IN THE LATE SEVENTIES, EARLY EIGHTIES.

UH, AT THAT TIME IT WAS BEST PLACE TO LIVE, WORK, PLAY, GROWING LIKE CRAZY.

IN 2011, THEY FILED FOR BANKRUPTCY.

UM, AND I TELL THAT STORY BECAUSE, UH, THERE, CALIFORNIA BACK THEN, OR TEXAS TODAY IS A LOT LIKE CALIFORNIA IN THE LATE SEVENTIES AND EARLY EIGHTIES.

UM, TECH OR CALIFORNIA PA PASSED A PROPERTY TAX CAP BACK IN THOSE DAYS.

WE ARE JUST NOW.

SO OUR HOUSING IS GOING UP.

THE WAY TO CLOSE THAT GAP IS NOT, UM, IT, IT, THERE'S A COMBINATION OF TOOLS, BUT WE NEED MORE SUPPLY.

TO DO MORE SUPPLY.

YOU'VE GOTTA HAVE SMALLER UNITS, UM, TO KEEP THINGS AFFORDABLE, UM, AND ATTAINABLE FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS.

YOU'VE GOTTA HAVE DIFFERENT SHAPE SHAPES AND SIZES.

IT SHOULDN'T JUST BE SINGLE FAMILY OVER HERE AND GIANT UGLY APARTMENT COMPLEX OVER HERE.

THERE'S A WHOLE SPECTRUM OF STUFF IN THE MIDDLE, UM, THAT AS PEOPLE AGE AND GO THROUGH LIFE, THEY WANT AND NEED DIFFERENT THINGS.

UM, WHETHER THAT'S A COTTAGE, WHETHER THAT'S A DUPLEX, WHETHER THAT'S, UM, YOU KNOW, AN A DU IN THE BACKYARD, UM, YOU'LL SEE, AND I, AND I ALWAYS TELL FOLKS TOO, THAT IT'S NOT, UM, SMALL DOES NOT HAVE TO MEAN POOR QUALITY, RIGHT? YOU CAN HAVE REALLY, REALLY HIGH QUALITY STUFF THAT'S SMALL BECAUSE YOU JUST DON'T NEED ALL THAT SPACE ANYMORE.

SO IT'S INTERESTING JUST SEEING PEOPLE AS WE WORK WITH DIFFERENT CITIES THAT ARE DOING COMPREHENSIVE PLANS OR ZONING CODES AND, AND HAVING THESE CONVERSATIONS OF, THERE'S, THERE'S PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE SINGLE FAMILY HOME WITH THE TWO KIDS IN THE BIG YARD AND THAT THEY, THEY HAD THAT, THEY WANTED THAT, BUT NOW THEY WANNA DOWNSIZE AND THERE'S NOWHERE REALLY IN THEIR COMMUNITY TO GO TO OR ON THE YOUNG PROFESSIONAL SIDE.

AND THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT THING FOR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT THAT THE, THE KIDS COMING OUTTA SCHOOL, THEY GREW UP IN THE SUBURBS.

THEY DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBURBS.

MY WIFE'S A COUNSELOR.

MM-HMM .

SHE HEARS FROM A LOT OF LIKE 10 TO 14 YEAR OLDS THAT THE REASON THEY DO THIS IS 'CAUSE THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO GO DO WHAT I WOULD BET ALL OF US GOT TO DO WHEN WE WERE GROWING UP.

MM-HMM .

UM, SO IT'S, IT'S A REALLY COMPLICATED THING FOR HOUSING IN TEXAS RIGHT NOW.

I, THEY'RE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

UM, BUT IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT, THEY'RE NOT ALL THE WAY THERE I GUESS.

BUT I BELIEVE COUNTY HOMES, TINY HOMES ARE ONE OF THE TOOLS.

UM, DUPLEXES, COTTAGE COURTS ARE ONE OF THE TOOLS.

YOU HAVE TO DO 'EM IN THE RIGHT PLACE.

YOU HAVE TO DESIGN 'EM WELL.

UM, DON'T SACRIFICE QUALITY FOR SIZE.

THE SAME THING APPLIES TO APARTMENTS.

IT'S FUNNY IF WE BUILD APARTMENTS WELL AND WE PUT 'EM IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND WE CALL THEM URBAN LIVING, AND YOU GET REALLY RICH PEOPLE AND, AND REALLY, UH, YOU KNOW, THE THE YOUNG PROFESSIONALS THAT COMPANIES ARE TRYING TO GET, YOU BUILD THEM OUT ON THE EDGE OF TOWN WHERE NOBODY WANTS TO BE, AND YOU HAVE POOR QUALITY, THEN THEY'RE THE, THE UGLY APARTMENTS THAT NOBODY WANTS IN TOWN.

UM, UH, I JUST, I'M JUST CURIOUS, HOW MANY OF YOU GUYS EVER LIVED IN AN APARTMENT? SO EV EVERYBODY'S HANDS GO UP WHEN I ASK THAT, BUT FOR SOME REASON WE THINK APARTMENTS ARE BAD NOW.

SO THE AUSTIN CONVERSATION'S GONNA BE REALLY INTERESTING TO FOLLOW.

UM, I'VE DONE A LOT OF TALKS OVER THE, PROBABLY THE LAST EIGHT YEARS AT TML, UM, MIGHT'VE SEEN SOME OF YOU GUYS THERE IN THE PAST, BUT THEY, THEY KEEP BRINGING ME BACK EVERY YEAR TO KEEP HAMMERING ON THIS.